# Murder convictions in the Shafia "dis"-honour trial. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 29, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105 "2012-01-29T19:58:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/41 "2012-01-30T21:27:59Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > "What sense does it make to kill two girls (and their mother) The OP’s quote says that the woman was the man’s “childless first wife,” so I’m assuming that the woman who was amongst those convicted was their mother. ---
**Author:** ![the\_Lady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bb73d2/32.png) [@the\_Lady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_Lady)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/42 "2012-01-30T22:33:25Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > I’m so glad that’s over. I don’t remember the last time something in the news has upset me so much or so frequently - you couldn’t open the damn paper without having something break your heart just a little bit more - and good luck finding the resolve to no read the details. I agree. Watching the news every night was hard. The whole thing is just so sad. Both the Globe article and the Blatchford article are very well done. And yes - she was their mother. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/43 "2012-01-30T22:43:45Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The OP’s quote says that the woman was the man’s “childless first wife,” so I’m assuming that the woman who was amongst those convicted was their mother. Yes, I read that fact too, but forgot it. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/44 "2012-01-30T23:43:53Z")
> [@the\_Lady](#): > > And yes - she was their mother. Sweet Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/45 "2012-01-31T00:01:22Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > I usually think of Christie Blatchford as a loathsome troll, but her reporting on this case has been top tier. I had no idea she was capable of being sensitive and circumspect, but holy crap - she pulled it off time and again over the last couple of years. I stopped here: > [@Blatchford](#): > > If it’s a fair generalisation that some Afghans have learned to say whatever they think their listener wants to hear, if it’s true that there is what’s called “permissible lying” in Islam (it’s called al-Taqiyya, and means the concealing or disguising of one’s beliefs, feelings or opinions to save oneself from injury), none of it quite explains the Shafias. I remember **The Flying Dutchman** was at some point trying very hard to convince us that Muslims as a whole were untrustworthy because of [taqiyya](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya%5B/url) which is actually a very specialized thing in Shia Islam, not a license to lie to infidels. So anybody who mentions this to try to convince us that some Muslims are lying, even while saying that it doesn’t “quite” explain them, isn’t worthy of listening to. Anyway: > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Under Canadian law, complicity makes her guilty of the offence of murder as well: Does this include complicity after the fact? From my reading it only seems to include complicity in the preparation of the act. Unless “abet” means to aid afterwards? > [@orcenio](#): > > Judging from [wire taps excepts](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/the-10-most-shocking-quotes-from-the-shafia-trial/article2318872/) it’s clear that Yahya knew of the murders (she clearly approved of Zainab’s death). Also judging from her behaviour before/after the murders I just don’t reasonably see how she could be NOT involved. She was physically there along with Shafia, she knowingly approves of (at least one) of the deaths, she hasn’t even tried to once separate herself from the actions of the others. She showed herself to be as active in this crime as the other two. Maybe, but she struck me as a woman who comes from a culture where all her life is geared towards being a “good wife” and doing anything to stand by her man and her family. I’m sure Shafia didn’t ask for her permission or her input when planning the murders. That’s none of a mere woman’s business. And of course she couldn’t say anything, even if she might have known of the planned murders (which might not even have been the case: why should a mere woman have to know about the men’s business?) For one, it’s been drilled into her that she has to stand by her man, and for two, she might have been killed as well. And of course she lied constantly during the trial. I mean, I even half-expected her at some point to take the stand and claim entire responsibility for the whole thing, say it was her and her alone who killed these three women and that her husband and son didn’t have anything at all to do about it. Because, you know, that’s what a good wife would do. (But I’m sure her laywer wouldn’t have allowed her to do that.) I may be wrong, but that’s the kind of figure she struck me as. And yes, surely there’s something criminal in all that. Maybe it rises to complicity which would make her equally culpable. But I can’t help but think she had some sort of diminished responsibility in the whole ordeal. I don’t view her as equally guilty than her husband. > [@AK84](#): > > If I had been his lawyer, I would have advised a ple of diminished responsibility on grounds of having been saddled with a name like Shafia. What, does it mean something insulting in Persian? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/46 "2012-01-31T00:20:28Z")
I don’t think I can ever understand the mentality of a culture that embeds a fear of shame so deeply as to warrant the killing of your own family member. If my parents both starred in beastiality porn videos and sent them to my friends and co-workers, I’d be ashamed, but in the end, I’d probably be able to laugh it off. It’d make a good story and its not me doing it, so I wouldn’t be that ashamed, certainly not enough to kill them There has to be something wrong with people who can live with and presumably love their own flesh and blood for decades then turn around and kill them for something as simple as dishonor. It shames the family? So fucking what??! I want to grab the father and the brother and shake them (and do other painful stuff to them) and ask them how they can prize honor over actual living, breathing people. The brother never spent time with his sisters? Never talked to them about the future, never confided in them? Didn’t he ever protect them from bullies, or stand up for them against his parents, or when they were kids, didn’t they play tricks on their parents and then ran away laughing? How can you prize that person who made those memories over some fucking family honor? I’d kill the father for even daring to suggest murder if it came to that. The fact that I have female relatives just makes me think that these men deserve whatever hell that exists for doing that. It makes me god damn sick ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/47 "2012-01-31T01:41:26Z")
For that matter, this whole tragic, sordid affair reveals a misogyny so pervasive that it boggles the mind. Don’t any of the men in this family understand they wouldn’t even be _alive_ had it not been for a woman? ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/48 "2012-01-31T02:26:46Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > Does this include complicity after the fact? From my reading it only seems to include complicity in the preparation of the act. Unless “abet” means to aid afterwards? Inactivity can also implicate someone under the provisions of s. 21 of the Criminal Code. I think that may have been what happened here: the mother’s inactivity, in spite of knowing what the father and brother planned, made her complicit. She could have (and should have) reported their plans to the police; the fact that she did not made her a co-accused in the matter. See, for example, _[R. v. Nixon](http://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcca/doc/1990/1990canlii407/1990canlii407.html)_, 1990 CanLII 407 (BC CA), at the Conclusion: > [@](#): > > The appellant was convicted of aiding and abetting an assault on the grounds that he failed to act to prevent the assault from occurring when he had a duty to do so. In my opinion, the learned trial judge did not err in reaching that conclusion. The authorities to which I have referred support the conclusion that where the accused had a duty to prevent the commission of an offence, or where he was in a position to have control over the acts of the offender and failed to prevent the commission of the offence, he will be guilty as an aider and abettor. > > A person becomes a party under s. 21(1)(b) if he fails to act for the purpose of aiding in the commission of the offence. **Where there is duty to act, and the accused does not act, it is open to the court to infer that the purpose of the failure to act was to aid in the commission of the offence.** Emphasis added. Note that this was the best I can do in a few moments of legal research; I’m sure that, given more time, I could find more examples where inactivity (in the form of not reporting a planned crime) constitutes complicity. ---
**Author:** ![Pyper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Pyper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pyper)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/49 "2012-01-31T05:27:05Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > I understand that the 19 and 17 year-olds had boyfriends that the family were upset about, but what did 13 year-old Geeti do that she deserved to die? Was that just a pre-emptive honor killing as she had reached puberty? Were they going to take out the youngest daughter when she reached puberty or wait for her to find a guy first? > [@orcenio](#): > > “What sense does it make to kill two girls (and their mother) while leaving the last 13 year old alive? Geeti’ll clearly know the score and help convict the rest of us; best to wipe out the entire Rona clan. It’s the only way.” Geeti was not the youngest: there were two younger daughters and a younger brother. Christine Blatchford’s articles speculate that she was killed because she was the most likely to blow the whistle on the murders. She had been acting out in school and had already called Canada’s equivalent of Children’s Services down on the family’s heads several times by reporting abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/50 "2012-01-31T07:31:12Z")
> [@Pyper](#): > > Geeti was not the youngest: there were two younger daughters and a younger brother. Christine Blatchford’s articles speculate that she was killed because she was the most likely to blow the whistle on the murders. She had been acting out in school and had already called Canada’s equivalent of Children’s Services down on the family’s heads several times by reporting abuse. And, apparently, the authorities took little notice, because the girls were well-dressed, and retracted their statements in the presence of their parents. In this case, the authorities were in Quebec, but I have no doubt that the same occurrence would happen in any province of Canada. That’s how afraid we are of upsetting cultural norms. I would suggest, as Blatchford inferred, that there is a base “pan-Canadian” cultural norm–that is, women have rights, and they will be listened to. Anybody who states that they should not be because “that’s not how we do it in Afghanistan or Sudan or Jordan,” or similar, should be automatically suspect. Canadian multiculturalism was never meant to extend to killing female children in the name of Islam; or lacking that, to some bizarre definition of “family honour.” To put it plainly: in Canada, regardless of “old country” culture, girls may have boyfriends, girls may hold hands with boys in the mall, girls may wear what they please, and girls may seek their own future. If that bothers the girls’ parents, then I would suggest that Canada may not be a place where the girls’ parents should choose to settle. Because we will not let you control your girls as you did in the old country.. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/51 "2012-01-31T12:42:52Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > And, apparently, the authorities took little notice, because the girls were well-dressed, and retracted their statements in the presence of their parents. > > In this case, the authorities were in Quebec, but I have no doubt that the same occurrence would happen in any province of Canada. That’s how afraid we are of upsetting cultural norms. Actually, be it Canada or the US or many other western nations, “Child Protection Services” agencies have historically had a terrible reputation for inconsistent or incomprehensible performance of the “protection” part. Of taking some kids away for what seems like minor imperfections in the home environment or what are clearly BS allegations made in the heat of a custody fight, while \*not \*taking them away from abusive environments because, well, yeah, because they’re well dressed and fed so it can’t be that bad. (See also the thread on the [Norway feeding-by-hand = abuse incident](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=638993). ) Until very recently in historic terms, the relevant agencies had a self-contradictory mission element of preserving the family if possible, and a vision of “endangerment” kind of socioeconomically skewed to favor “well dressed and fed” as a criterion for a good enough family environment, and that mentality takes a loooong time to change. It did not click on _“it’s multiculturalism’s fault”_ for me right off the bat. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/52 "2012-01-31T17:20:05Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > …See, for example, _[R. v. Nixon](http://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcca/doc/1990/1990canlii407/1990canlii407.html)_, 1990 CanLII 407 (BC CA), at the Conclusion: > > …A person becomes a party under s. 21(1)(b) if he fails to act for the purpose of aiding in the commission of the offence. **Where there is duty to act, and the accused does not act, it is open to the court to infer that the purpose of the failure to act was to aid in the commission of the offence** … Would the woman’s “duty to act” have arisen due to her status as: 1. mom to the threatened child 2. a relative, in any degree, of the threatened child 3. a person, related or not, who is aware of a murder being planned 4. something else? ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/53 "2012-01-31T18:14:49Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > And, apparently, the authorities took little notice, because the girls were well-dressed, and retracted their statements in the presence of their parents. > > In this case, the authorities were in Quebec, but I have no doubt that the same occurrence would happen in any province of Canada. That’s how afraid we are of upsetting cultural norms. > > I would suggest, as Blatchford inferred, that there is a base “pan-Canadian” cultural norm–that is, women have rights, and they will be listened to. Anybody who states that they should not be because “that’s not how we do it in Afghanistan or Sudan or Jordan,” or similar, should be automatically suspect. Canadian multiculturalism was never meant to extend to killing female children in the name of Islam; or lacking that, to some bizarre definition of “family honour.” > > To put it plainly: in Canada, regardless of “old country” culture, girls may have boyfriends, girls may hold hands with boys in the mall, girls may wear what they please, and girls may seek their own future. If that bothers the girls’ parents, then I would suggest that Canada may not be a place where the girls’ parents should choose to settle. Because we will not let you control your girls as you did in the old country.. It got a lot of flack at the time, and I’m not sure they went about it entirely in the correct manner, but discussions like the Bouchard-Taylor Commission on reasonable accommodation need to take place and lines _do_ need to be drawn. Mentioning things like that tend to lead to accusations of xenophobia, racism and bigotry, which poisons the well right off the bat, but you are correct that we cannot allow situations like this to develop ever again. These weren’t the first or only honour killings in Canada - [here is a randomly googled article](http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/01/10/mother-uncle-accused-of-honour-killing-make-first-court-appearance)about another alleged one (the killing took place in India, though the parents were in Canada). We cannot force people to take on all aspects of our culture. But we cannot allow all aspects of other cultures - particularly those that are damaging or criminal in our society - to continue here either. I don’t know how to go about it, and there is a lot of education that need to take place, both of immigrants and Canadians, but things like these murders should never happen again. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/54 "2012-02-01T04:20:59Z")
**Update:** The son has filed an appeal From today’s [Globe and Mail](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/shafia-son-files-notice-to-appeal-murder-convictions/article2321107/): > [@](#): > > The lawyer for Hamed Shafia says his client has filed notice to appeal his first-degree murder conviction in the deaths of four family members… > > The main grounds of Mr. Shafia’s appeal are based on whether certain evidence should have been allowed at trial, [Hamed’s defense lawyer] Mr. McCann said. > > “They relate to the admissibility of some of the hearsay evidence from the girls and Rona, and also the admissibility of the expert evidence on honour killing,” he said… ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/55 "2012-02-01T05:16:53Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > We cannot force people to take on all aspects of our culture. But we cannot allow all aspects of other cultures - particularly those that are damaging or criminal in our society - to continue here either. Can we start with the “aspects of culture” that led a white British Columbian to be able to murder nearly fifty women sex workers, many of them Aboriginal, before he was stopped? Or is it only “other” cultures that are to be under scrutiny? ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/56 "2012-02-01T05:52:32Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > Can we start with the “aspects of culture” that led a white British Columbian to be able to murder nearly fifty women sex workers, many of them Aboriginal, before he was stopped? Or is it only “other” cultures that are to be under scrutiny? Um. What? I’m discussing this particular case, involving foreign cultural elements and differences that led to the deaths of four women in Canada. Yes, we should look into the aspects of culture - whatever they may be - that led to Pickton killing nearly fifty female sex workers, many of the Aboriginal. If something is harmful or dangerous, it needs to be examined and discussed and possibly fixed or accommodated or whatever in order to make it not dangerous or harmful. I don’t see why talking about potentially harmful aspects of some cultures precludes us from talking about our own culture. I’m under no allusions that ours is perfect. Did you actually read what I wrote, or did you just go with the knee-jerk reaction? _We cannot expect people to take on all aspects of our culture._ Meaning that there are many, many aspects of other cultures that people should and can keep or continue with in Canada. _But we cannot allow all aspects of other cultures - particularly those that are damaging or criminal in our society - to continue here either._ There are many aspects of other cultures that are different from ours - that’s what makes them other cultures, and most should be celebrated - but there are some things that we, as a country, as a culture, have determined and agreed are _harmful or criminal_ and they shouldn’t get a pass just because it’s allowed somewhere else. It’s rather disingenuous to imply any sort of racist or other negative motive to my words, and I’d appreciate an apology. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/57 "2012-02-01T07:00:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Can we start with the “aspects of culture” that led a white British Columbian to be able to murder nearly fifty women sex workers, many of them Aboriginal, before he was stopped? Or is it only “other” cultures that are to be under scrutiny? What the devil does this have to do with anything? You think a serial murderer, who preyed on the most vulnerable, is a cultural thing? His victims were prostitutes, and aboriginals, and any other disenfranchised, like hookers and addicts. People society had largely given up on and no one would likely look too hard for. They’d just assume, they went with a bad john, or overdosed, or fell into a hole. There is no evidence that he was selecting specifically aboriginals, just street people who made easy victims. But, hey, way to jerk that knee, even tangentially. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/58 "2012-02-01T09:00:33Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > **Update:** The son has filed an appeal > > From today’s [Globe and Mail](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/shafia-son-files-notice-to-appeal-murder-convictions/article2321107/): Being too busy/lazy to look it up, what are the rules on hearsy in Canadian jurisdictions. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/59 "2012-02-01T09:06:39Z")
At least some Canadian Criminal lawyers (some of whom are actually not the Counsels ;)) are convinced that any Appeal has a [realistic prospect of success](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/lawyers-point-to-prejudicial-evidence-for-appeal-in-shafia-case/article2320411/). To my mind from what I have read in this case and being also trained in common law jurisdictions, there are certain questions which could make an appeal very interesting. Feedback from Canadian lawyers would be greatly appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/60 "2012-02-01T11:48:12Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > We cannot force people to take on all aspects of our culture. But we cannot allow all aspects of other cultures - particularly those that are damaging or criminal in our society - to continue here either. > > I don’t know how to go about it, and there is a lot of education that need to take place, both of immigrants and Canadians, but things like these murders should never happen again. I’m not Canadian, but I do agree with this. No society can afford an all-or-nothing approach to cultural differences. You can’t force someone to adopt all of the new country’s cultural norms, and that’s a good thing, but at the same time, you can’t excuse bad behavior away by ascribing it to the cultural norms of the country from which they emigrated. Murder is murder, and Canada (or the US or France or wherever) has the right and, I would also argue the obligation, to protect its citizens and residents from being murdered, no matter if it’s a white serial killer or an intra-family honor killing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105.md?page=4)