# Murder convictions in the Shafia "dis"-honour trial. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 29, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105 "2012-01-29T19:58:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/61 "2012-02-01T12:47:16Z")
Since they are not only child murderers but murderers of their OWN children/sisters, I’m sure they will be treated with kindness by their fellow inmates. Canadian niceness extends even to its prison population, surely. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/62 "2012-02-01T15:58:56Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > _But we cannot allow all aspects of other cultures - particularly those that are damaging or criminal in our society - to continue here either._ There are many aspects of other cultures that are different from ours - that’s what makes them other cultures, and most should be celebrated - but there are some things that we, as a country, as a culture, have determined and agreed are _harmful or criminal_ and they shouldn’t get a pass just because it’s allowed somewhere else. > > It’s rather disingenuous to imply any sort of racist or other negative motive to my words, and I’d appreciate an apology. What gets my goat is the focus on the _other_ cultures. What does that mean? Why is the lesson to draw from the Shafia murders “oh, those scary other cultures” and not, “violence against women persists throughout Canada”? What I see in the discussion in this case is a fixation on violence against women as a phenomenon that happens in “other cultures,” which excuses us from considering the extent to which it happpens in “our own.” What I mean is that there’s something disturbing about how all the discussion of the Shafia case has focused on the fact that they are immigrants, as if non-immigrants never or rarely murder their female family members and immigrants very frequently do. Neither implication is borne out, so I would like to look at the goal that these discussions seek. [Some discussion.](http://www.montrealgazette.com/opinion/Should+call+honour+killing/6074266/story.html) ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/63 "2012-02-01T18:37:10Z")
WTF **matt** , this discussion is about cultures in which the concept of _honour killings of women_ is acceptable. That is something that occurs in _other_ cultures, rather than in ours. THAT’S why I’m talking about _other_ cultures. It’s really rather simple. I am talking specifically about the circumstances that led to the Shafia girls being killed, and part of that has to do with their status as immigrants and the culture they came from. NOTHING I say on this topic precludes me from discussing other topics, or discussing the aspects of our culture that leads to the killing of women, or from having an opinion on…well…anything…outside of this topic. You want to discuss these other issues, start another thread. But stop pretending that just because we aren’t talking about something else entirely, that means we are totally ok with it. Sorry, this is a bit of a rant but I am sick and tired of the stupid attitude on these boards of “you said X about Y, therefore you must think Z about W!!!” My opinion on pineapples has fuck all to do with my opinion on high heeled shoes and it’s insane that people constantly come into threads and try and catch people in a lie by applying things they’ve said to totally unrelated ideas. The thread is about the Shafia murders. We are talking about the Shafia murders. Go elsewhere to talk about the Pickton murders, or the Bernardo murders or the Williams murders or whether or not you like fuzzy slippers. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/64 "2012-02-01T20:07:10Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > What gets my goat is the focus on the _other_ cultures. What does that mean? Why is the lesson to draw from the Shafia murders “oh, those scary other cultures” and not, “violence against women persists throughout Canada”? > > What I see in the discussion in this case is a fixation on violence against women as a phenomenon that happens in “other cultures,” which excuses us from considering the extent to which it happpens in “our own.” > > What I mean is that there’s something disturbing about how all the discussion of the Shafia case has focused on the fact that they are immigrants, as if non-immigrants never or rarely murder their female family members and immigrants very frequently do. Neither implication is borne out, so I would like to look at the goal that these discussions seek. > > [Some discussion.](http://www.montrealgazette.com/opinion/Should+call+honour+killing/6074266/story.html) I don’t think you can discuss this case without bringing the Shafias’ culture into it - their culture was the reason that the father of the girls was outraged by their behaviour, and their culture was the reason that he killed them. That is not to distance ourselves from violence against women in Canadian culture; it’s just moot in this discussion because the culture that caused these murders was Afghani, not Canadian. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/65 "2012-02-01T20:36:46Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > Sorry, this is a bit of a rant … Yeah, it is. You might want to take a deep breath before posting in this thread again. I’m not commenting on what you said, just reminding you that we’re in MPSIMS, not the Pit. Thanks **twickster** , MPSIMS moderator ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/66 "2012-02-01T21:31:20Z")
WTF, **twickster**? Nothing she said was inappropriate for MPSIMS. She wasn’t even toeing the line. So she should be reminded that doing something she hasn’t done could end up being against MPSIMS rules? Oookay, then. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/67 "2012-02-01T21:58:28Z")
Okay now I’m confused too. What exactly did she do wrong? I don’t see any attacks or foul language. The point made is germane to the discussion. Not allowed to get passionate about anything? Why the reminder? ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/68 "2012-02-01T22:10:22Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I don’t see any attacks or foul language. The f-word that rhymes with ‘duck’ should, I think, be considered foul language. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/69 "2012-02-01T22:26:57Z")
True enough, but it wasn’t directed toward a poster and I thought that was allowed. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/70 "2012-02-01T22:27:12Z")
Yeah, it was the use of the word “fuck.” Rereading the post, enh, it’s not that bad. Mod note withdrawn. **twickster** , MPSIMS moderator ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/71 "2012-02-01T23:02:03Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > The f-word that rhymes with ‘duck’ should, I think, be considered foul language. I agree, and want to point out that the d-word that rhymes with ‘fuck’ should, I think, be considered fowl language. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/72 "2012-02-01T23:24:56Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I agree, and want to point out that the d-word that rhymes with ‘fuck’ should, I think, be considered fowl language. G-d help the punsters if I become a Mod! You will feel my feeted jack boots! No,booted jack feet… Can I get back to you on this? ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/73 "2012-02-02T00:58:37Z")
perhaps you meant fuzzy slippers, carnivorous plant? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/74 "2012-02-02T02:22:37Z")
> [@rocking\_chair](#): > > perhaps you meant fuzzy slippers, carnivorous plant? Hmmm… No, “Hob Nailed Jackboots” is definitely in there somewhere… ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/75 "2012-02-02T13:14:50Z")
If their motive is honor, then perhaps it would be an extra deterrent if such cases, in addition to the usual prison sentencing, were punished with something especial intended to dishonor the guilty. A public display, pillory and rotten tomatoes, parade them naked through town, or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/76 "2012-02-03T10:44:36Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > If their motive is honor, then perhaps it would be an extra deterrent if such cases, in addition to the usual prison sentencing, were punished with something especial intended to dishonor the guilty. A public display, pillory and rotten tomatoes, parade them naked through town, or whatever. As I hinted in my previous post, perhaps all we need to do to accomplish your suggestion is to publicize even more the (assumed) prevalence of prison rape, and the likelihood of a child murderer swiftly becoming a frequent “bottom”. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/77 "2012-02-03T10:50:40Z")
ETA: Please don’t think I have anything against homosexuality…but, from what I’ve heard, being a frequent “bottom” is likely to be a particular source of humiliation for the particular culture discussed in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105/78 "2012-02-03T11:26:01Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > ETA: Please don’t think I have anything against homosexuality…but, from what I’ve heard, being a frequent “bottom” is likely to be a particular source of humiliation for the particular culture discussed in this thread. What culture. If you are talking Afghan culture, then no, they are not Afghans, they are most likley Tajiks or Uzbeks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-convictions-in-the-shafia-dis-honour-trial/611105.md?page=3)