# Murderers: Israel blows up a crowd of protestors, killing and wounding dozens **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 19, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994 "2004-05-19T17:39:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/1 "2004-05-19T17:39:55Z")
From the Washington Post: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38959-2004May19.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38959-2004May19.html) > [@](#): > > RAFAH, Gaza Strip, May 19 – An Israeli tank and helicopter fired on Palestinian demonstrators Wednesday, killing at least 12 people and wounding dozens of others, according to witnesses. Many of the injured were young teenagers and young people, the Associated Press reported from the scene. > > It was the second consecutive day of death and injury in this densely populated area of the Gaza Strip. At least 19 Palestinians were killed Tuesday as Israeli forces went street by street and house by house seeking to root out Palestinian fighters and weapons. Basically, as the protestors marched down the street, a tank and an assault helicopter fired at the crowd. According to CNN, 24 people were killed and 82 wounded, 12 of them critically. Many of the casualties were children. > [@](#): > > Kahmis Shaer, who was in the protesting crowd, said everyone was in a state of shock. “I saw a guy with his head chopped off and another with his arm off and another hit in the stomach.” Witnesses said that while the crowd was shouting slogans, they heard no warning before the tank opened fire. But surprise, surprise, Israel denies shooting into the crowd. Well, then, how did all those people get blasted to bits? From CNN:[http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/19/mideast/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/19/mideast/index.html) > [@](#): > > JERUSALEM (CNN) – Palestinians blame an Israeli helicopter strike for the deaths of 24 people among 200 marching in a protest of Israel’s crackdown in Gaza, but the Israeli military vigorously denied its helicopter fired on the crowd. I am OUTRAGED by this! The US needs to stand up to this type of warmongering murder of civillians and children. Just take a look at the photos of this attack, it’s sickening. I’m so sick of Israel getting away with this shit. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/2 "2004-05-19T17:47:11Z")
First off, you have to know that most pro-Israeli supporters, at least on this website, do not support action on the part of the Israelis. That’s as far as I’m getting into that part of your OP. Secondly, why the FUCK do you think the U.S. has any fucking business meddling in Israel’s affairs? The U.S. needs to pull back from “stand[ing] up to this type of warmongering”, not get deeper into it. Since both sides have shown a lack of being reasonable with regards to settling(though I think Israel has made MANY many honest attempts), the UN and the US really should not involve themselves or their resources in the matter. Sam ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/3 "2004-05-19T17:48:54Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > First off, you have to know that most pro-Israeli supporters, at least on this website, do not support action on the part of the Israelis. That should read …"…actions like these…" ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/4 "2004-05-19T17:49:36Z")
Hmmm. So we have one side who makes a practice of wiring fanatics up in semtex suits and sending them to densly populated areas to detonate themself and as many civilians as possible for the greater glory of God, and another side who makes a practice of only responding directly to attacks, targeting specific terrorists for removal and always tries to minimize civilian casualties as much as possible. I don’t think it’s Israel who you should be pointing the finger at for “getting away with shit”, even if they turn out to be in the wrong in this specific instance. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/5 "2004-05-19T17:51:20Z")
It easily could have been a noble young freedom fighter got sloppy with his explosives belt. Blue-on-blue incidents are not unknown among the Palestinians. Regardless, I wouldn’t be too eager to believe what the Palestinians say. Remember the bullshit claims regarding [Jenin?](http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/218vnicq.asp) Or the humorous incident with the [Palestinian Lazarus?](http://israelinsider.com/channels/diplomacy/articles/dip_0204.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/6 "2004-05-19T17:52:44Z")
Doesn’t excuse them, though. Man, what the hell were they _THINKING?_ There had better be a good reason for this, like the crowd actually were carrying stinger missles or shooting on the Israelis. I mean, seriously, what does this gain them? I can’t think of anything at all. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/7 "2004-05-19T17:56:38Z")
So we should just stay silent and let massacres like this take place? The military is massacring civilians and shooting missiles into crowds of protestors. If this were happening in any place other than Israel, we’d be all over that; at least we should issue an official reprimand or condemnation of the act. This is reprehensible. Does Israel really think this is a good way to stop terrorism? Every kid that lost a father today, or father that lost a son today, or boy who lost a friend, all of them are going to want revenge. I think what Israel is doing to those people is terrorism too. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/8 "2004-05-19T17:58:29Z")
What Sam said. I’m pro Israel, but not pro blowing crowds the fuck up. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/9 "2004-05-19T18:00:43Z")
Bush’s reaction. From BBCnews. > [@](#): > > US President George W Bush called for restraint from both sides and said he had asked Israel for “clarification”. > > “It is essential that people respect innocent life in order for us to achieve peace,” he said. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/10 "2004-05-19T18:03:58Z")
> [@nyctea scandiaca](#): > > So we should just stay silent and let massacres like this take place? The military is massacring civilians and shooting missiles into crowds of protestors. If this were happening in any place other than Israel, we’d be all over that; at least we should issue an official reprimand or condemnation of the act. This is reprehensible. Does Israel really think this is a good way to stop terrorism? Every kid that lost a father today, or father that lost a son today, or boy who lost a friend, all of them are going to want revenge. Don’t be a fucking retard, you know the censures will come down. The US and UN have consistently censured Israel for lesser actions than this, what makes you think they won’t this time? > [@](#): > > I think what Israel is doing to those people is terrorism too. I’m glad you do. Considering the Palestinians long-standing **policy** on attacking civilians, y’ought not throw stones in your little glass house. It’s ugly, and vile, reprehensible, unacceptable and inhuman, but so is exterminating pregnant women and children point-blank with automatic weapons. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/11 "2004-05-19T18:04:47Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > and another side who makes a practice of only responding directly to attacks What attack was this incident in response to? It was a protest! > [@Weirddave](#): > > targeting specific terrorists for removal Again, which specific terrorists were they targeting when firing into a crowd? > [@Weirddave](#): > > and always tries to minimize civilian casualties as much as possible. Did you miss this?: “According to CNN, 24 people were killed and 82 wounded, 12 of them critically. Many of the casualties were children.” These were civilians. No witnesses or reporters so far have published accounts that this was a “noble young freedom fighter got sloppy with his explosives belt” or people “carrying stinger missles or shooting on the Israelis.” There is not yet evidence of any of this. It is precisely stuff like this that causes “fanatics in semtex suits” to blow themselves up. How is this stuff going to make anything better?? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/12 "2004-05-19T18:08:26Z")
I’m pro-Israel, too, but I think we nee dto be really harsh with Israel ofr this, even to the point of recalling our ambassador or condemning them at the UN, and here’s why. We have to mend fences with the Arab world right now. They think of us as nothing more than murdering imperialists who connive at the Israeli murder of innocents. If we want to be see as fair to both sides, then we have to condemn Israeli atrocities as harshly as we denounce Arab crimes. ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/13 "2004-05-19T18:09:43Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > another side who makes a practice of only responding directly to attacks, targeting specific terrorists for removal and always tries to minimize civilian casualties as much as possible. But isn’t there a point at which actions like “shooting at protesters” or “bulldozing homes” gets added to this list too? It’s getting to be a bit much lately to portray them as the perfectly clean player in this. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/14 "2004-05-19T18:11:38Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > Don’t be a fucking retard, you know the censures will come down. The US and UN have consistently censured Israel for lesser actions than this, what makes you think they won’t this time? It’s about time for something a little more bold than a “censure.” > [@GaWd](#): > > I’m glad you do. Considering the Palestinians long-standing **policy** on attacking civilians, y’ought not throw stones in your little glass house. It’s ugly, and vile, reprehensible, unacceptable and inhuman, but so is exterminating pregnant women and children point-blank with automatic weapons. Dude, I never ever condoned Palestinian violence. What they do to Israelis is revenge for shit like this. And stuff like what Israel did today is revenge for what Palestinians did. Back and forth and back and forth and back and forth… To me, “exterminating children point-blank with automatic weapons” and having an assault helicopter blast a child to oblivion in a crowd are equally as bad. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/15 "2004-05-19T18:11:58Z")
> [@nyctea scandiaca](#): > > So we should just stay silent and let massacres like this take place? The military is massacring civilians and shooting missiles into crowds of protestors. If this were happening in any place other than Israel, we’d be all over that; at least we should issue an official reprimand or condemnation of the act. This is reprehensible. Does Israel really think this is a good way to stop terrorism? Every kid that lost a father today, or father that lost a son today, or boy who lost a friend, all of them are going to want revenge. > > I think what Israel is doing to those people is terrorism too. Well, yea, except you selectively quoted from the CNN article: > [@](#): > > The IDF said in a statement that the helicopter fired one missile at an empty nearby area to disperse the crowd, which it said included gunmen, and fired flares, which explode in mid-air. > > The IDF statement also said it fired tank shells at an abandoned building – a maneuver that may have led to the deaths. and > [@](#): > > I assure you one thing: there are no rules of engagement in the IDF or among security forces that allow firing direct or high-trajectory fire into a crowd. So if there was, it was against the rules or by mistake," Gissin told CNN. > > He expressed “my deep regrets on behalf of the Israeli government” for the loss of innocent lives, “regardless of how they were killed.” And > [@](#): > > The IDF said the road on which the Palestinians were marching – the main road leading from central Rafah to the neighborhood of Tel Sultan – is lined with explosives placed there by Palestinians. So, to sumarize, the Isralies my have been firing away from the crowd, what would be classified as a warning shot, there were armed Palistinians in the crowd, the Israelie government has a policy of NOT firing on civilians and the civilians were marching in an area where there are known to be land mines and the like, and most importantly, _we don’t know precisely what happened yet_ Sure sounds like the “warmongering murder of civillians and children” to me, yessiree Bob. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/16 "2004-05-19T18:14:06Z")
It sure was ballsy for Putin to call the incident a “disproportionate use of force” considering what Moscow has done to the Chechens. ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/17 "2004-05-19T18:15:02Z")
“IDF said”, “IDF said”, “IDF said”. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/18 "2004-05-19T18:17:36Z")
> [@SmackFu](#): > > “IDF said”, “IDF said”, “IDF said”. My thoughts exactly. What about what the witnesses said and the news reporters who were on the scene said? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/19 "2004-05-19T18:21:48Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > So we have one side who makes a practice of wiring fanatics up in semtex suits and sending them to densly populated areas to detonate themself and as many civilians as possible for the greater glory of God …and that would be, in this case, the side that was engaging in a peaceful protest. Right. > [@](#): > > and another side who makes a practice of only responding directly to attacks, targeting specific terrorists for removal and always tries to minimize civilian casualties as much as possible. …and that would be, in this case, the side that massacred the protestors. Gotcha. > [@](#): > > I don’t think it’s Israel who you should be pointing the finger at for “getting away with shit”, even if they turn out to be in the wrong in this specific instance. Oh, don’t get me wrong. I think the US ought to quit giving military aid to the Palestinian terrorists, too, and ought to quit defending the Palestinian terrorists in the United Nations as well. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/20 "2004-05-19T18:23:46Z")
> [@nyctea scandiaca](#): > > It’s about time for something a little more bold than a “censure.” Like what? Invading and deposing? Carpet Bombing? Maybe cutting off our loans and imposing an embargo, prompting starvation and forcing the Israelites to lay down all of their weapons in the face of an enemy that attackes not soldiers but civilians as a standard? All of this to our ONLY friend in the entire region? Fuck that. > [@](#): > > Dude, I never ever condoned Palestinian violence. What they do to Israelis is revenge for shit like this. And stuff like what Israel did today is revenge for what Palestinians did. Back and forth and back and forth and back and forth… and back and forth and back and forth…Ad Infinitum. For eternity until one smokes the other, yes. That appears to be their destiny. Sam [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994.md?page=2)