# Murderers: Israel blows up a crowd of protestors, killing and wounding dozens **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 19, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994 "2004-05-19T17:39:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/21 "2004-05-19T18:26:20Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > All of this to our ONLY friend in the entire region? Fuck that. I don’t want friends like that. Our reputation is already bad enough. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/22 "2004-05-19T18:39:24Z")
> [@nyctea scandiaca](#): > > I don’t want friends like that. Our reputation is already bad enough. Oh yeah, there’s some real moral superiors in the ME… :rolleyes: Sam ---
**Author:** ![kezami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eb8c5e/32.png) [@kezami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kezami)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/23 "2004-05-19T18:50:16Z")
> [@nyctea scandiaca](#): > > What about what the witnesses said and the news reporters who were on the scene said? What did the witnesses and news reporters say about Jenin? Turned out to be a gross fabrication if I recall correctly. I’m confident there will be an investigation. Until then why doesn’t everyone just continue jumping to conclusions (just don’t break an ankle) ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/24 "2004-05-19T18:52:49Z")
Where’s a mat when you need one? ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/25 "2004-05-19T18:57:58Z")
> [@kezami](#): > > What did the witnesses and news reporters say about Jenin? Turned out to be a gross fabrication if I recall correctly. > > I’m confident there will be an investigation. Until then why doesn’t everyone just continue jumping to conclusions (just don’t break an ankle) Hmm, well because they “cried wolf” once, we’re not going to believe them now? Heck, even the IDF admits they fired rounds near the crowd into an abandoned building, with shrapnel and debris from that killing some of the protestors. What were they thinking firing from tanks and assault helicopters anywhere near a crowd? I “jumped to conclusions” because based on the news reports so far, a massacre is the picture being drawn. I have seen the photos and the accounts from the news reporters. Israel already admitted they fired, so even if that is the least they did, I still find it reprehensible. If you find evidence to the contrary, I would love to see it. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/26 "2004-05-19T19:02:01Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > Like what? Invading and deposing? Carpet Bombing? Maybe cutting off our loans and imposing an embargo, prompting starvation and forcing the Israelites to lay down all of their weapons in the face of an enemy that attackes not soldiers but civilians as a standard? While it may strike you as improbable, there’re actually other options than those you’ve listed. A simple thing that comes to my mind without much thought is to make loan guantees contingent upon Israeli behavior being in accordance with US wishes. No need for an embargo or starving Israelis or any of the other hyperbole you proposed. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/27 "2004-05-19T19:08:50Z")
> [@nyctea scandiaca](#): > > Hmm, well because they “cried wolf” once, we’re not going to believe them now? Is that really all you got out of his post? Stop doing exactly what he suggested we all not do-Jump to conclusions. SimonX- This whole thread is hyperbole. The options I’ve listed in the post you quoted are based on actual situations and what the US and UN consider “punishment” pointed at countries that defy them. We’ve done it to Libya, Iraq and others as well. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/28 "2004-05-19T19:12:58Z")
When was the last time we carpet-bombed anything? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/29 "2004-05-19T19:26:46Z")
> [@Exgineer](#): > > When was the last time we carpet-bombed anything? I think it’s called “shock and awe” nowadays. 😛 [sub]And yes it’s much weaker then traditional carpet bombing[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/30 "2004-05-19T20:46:34Z")
Well, okay. It’s just that when I see the term “carpet-bombing” I don’t think “lots of precision bombing using guided munitions.” I tend to think “Arclight.” \ When I was a boy, we knew how to _really_ carpet-bomb stuff. Lazy damned kids. \ Has anybody gotten anything further? I’d really like to know what actually happened, and whatever the OP may think, I’m more inclined to believe the IDF than the Palestinian spokesman-of-the-week. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/31 "2004-05-19T21:04:18Z")
> [@Exgineer](#): > > Well, okay. It’s just that when I see the term “carpet-bombing” I don’t think “lots of precision bombing using guided munitions.” I tend to think “Arclight.” Sorry, you’re correct. Though I’d still say “carpet bombing” could be loosely used to describe our bombing runs. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/32 "2004-05-19T21:05:10Z")
I find it hard to believe that Israeli troops just randomly opened fire on a peacefully protesting group of Palestinians for the purpose of killing civilians. If this turns out to be true, however, I wholeheartedly condemn such an action and will be just as furious as you are, **nyctea**. But seeing as how the United States apparently just [opened fire on an Iraqi wedding party](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=257057), killing 40-45 civilians, including women and children, I hardly think we’re in a position to point fingers and criticize (and no, I’m not claiming we did it on purpose, but we don’t know that the Israelis did either – that’s my point). ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/33 "2004-05-19T21:06:55Z")
There’s no question that firing on unarmed protestors isn’t acceptable, and I don’t think anybody would defend it, or the action of that helicopter pilot. However, before people use this to judge Israel, or the Israeli government, lets wait and see what happens next. We don’t know if the helicopter pilot acted on orders, we don’t know if he’s going to be court martialed, we don’t know much. Obviously, if shooting on protesters is Israeli policy, that’s something to condemn, but if it’s a rogue action, then we shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/34 "2004-05-19T22:16:12Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > Doesn’t excuse them, though. Man, what the hell were they _THINKING?_ > > There had better be a good reason for this, like the crowd actually were carrying stinger missles or shooting on the Israelis. I mean, seriously, what does this gain them? I can’t think of anything at all. Agreed. Israel’s defenders should not borrow tactics from scummy organizations like Hamas. If this is true it’s terrible. > [@Go Bear](#): > > We have to mend fences with the Arab world right now. They think of us as nothing more than murdering imperialists who connive at the Israeli murder of innocents. If we want to be see as fair to both sides, then we have to condemn Israeli atrocities as harshly as we denounce Arab crimes. One could easily say the same about “mending fences” to the Arab world right now. Like many other supporters of Israel I’m perfectly willing to condemn Israeli actions when wrong. OTOH I have yet to see much condemnation of Arab/Muslim crimes in the Arab world. Arafat and his disgusting band of suicide bombers aren’t exactly the pariahs they deserve to be . . . ---
**Author:** ![ReuvenB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc348/32.png) [@ReuvenB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ReuvenB)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/35 "2004-05-19T22:34:12Z")
I’m probably missing something, but how is the article dated 6:22 PM tomorrow, when Israel is 7 hours ahead of Eastern Standard? ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/36 "2004-05-19T23:20:46Z")
I have to question the whole thing. I don’t believe for an instant that the IDF is as pure as the driven snow, but opening fire on a crowd just doesn’t seem like something they’d do. They have a tough job, and mistakes happen, but an outright massacre seems unlikely. They _know_ they’d catch a raft of shit for something like that. Keep in mind, there are a lot of Palestinian “militants” who won’t blink at the idea of using children as shields in a gunfight. In the absence of more information, I’m inclined to chalk this up as more Palestinian bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/37 "2004-05-20T07:41:52Z")
Apparently, the Bush administration has now [condemned](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120356,00.html) the actions: > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON — The White House on Wednesday strongly criticized Israel’s recent military offensive in Gaza after an attack that killed at least 10 Palestinian demonstrators, saying Israel’s actions had worsened the humanitarian situation and not improved its security. > > In a statement, the Bush administration said it deeply regretted “the loss of life of innocent Palestinian civilians today in Gaza,” and said the deaths “serve as a grim reminder of the wisdom” of Israel pulling out of Gaza. > > \ > > “Israel has explained it was not a planned act,” Powell told reporters at the State Department. “Nevertheless, it does not assist us in trying to move forward.” > > His criticism was reflected at the United Nations, where the United States did not veto an Arab resolution condemning Israel’s action. > > \ > > Israel’s military said soldiers fired to stop Palestinian demonstrators it said were heading toward a battle zone in the Gaza Strip. The demonstrators were protesting against the Israeli invasion of a neighboring refugee camp. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/38 "2004-05-20T09:36:16Z")
[Most of the dead were school-age children](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3730197.stm). Independent observers reported that [none of the crowd were armed](http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1220749,00.html), let alone firing. How is firing a rocket into a crowd different to detonating a suicide bomb in a crowd? How can a [child shot in the _back_ by a _sniper_](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3728495.stm) be a “mistake”? If these Israeli “mistakes” or “accidents” actually kill far _more_ civilians than Palestinian murders then surely such utter, gross negligence _approaches_ outright murder? If I were to walk down a suspected terrorist’s street blindfold spraying bullets randomly, I would expect to be charged with _murder_, not negligence, for any deaths I caused. This and other helicopter rocket attacks seem like Hamas bombing a bus full of civilians because it think one of them works for the IDF. (I hereby utterly condemn the deliberate targetting of civilians by Hamas, Hezbollah _etc._, and their horrific display of the [body parts of Israeli troops](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3705399.stm) killed in the successful _military_ operation which sparked this destruction of _civilian_ homes.) ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/39 "2004-05-20T10:09:29Z")
Sorry, I linked to one wrong article above. Should be [ur=http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1220635,00.html]children shot dead by army snipers. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/40 "2004-05-20T10:10:57Z")
Gahh! [Children shot dead by army snipers](http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1220635,00.html). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994.md?page=3)