# Murderers: Israel blows up a crowd of protestors, killing and wounding dozens **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 19, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994 "2004-05-19T17:39:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/61 "2004-05-20T20:46:37Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > Now, where is this tense change that according to you distorts the meaning of your quote?It’s still intellectually lazy. It still absolves the Palestinians of their complicity in the matter because you basically say it’s none of your business because you aren’t paying for the weapons. > > All this was in response to me asking why there are less anti-palestinian threads on the board. Please point out my distortion. > > Sam Because you’re addressing the issue instead of engaging in obnoxious insults, I’ll answer. It wasn’t a tense change; it was a voice change. I said that _I_ could hold Israel accountable; you changed this to me saying that only Israel could be held accountable. By changing my statement from the active voice (in which I was referring to what I, as an agent, could do) to the passive voice (in which the lack of an agent made it seem as if I was making a universal statement), you totally changed the meaning of my post. I don’t know how to make this clearer. Palestinian terrorists are doing a horrible thing–but they don’t give a shit about my saying that. I have no leverage over them. What am I going to do, encourage my government to fund their enemies? The Israeli army is also doing a terrible thing–but I do have some control over that, since they’re doing it with weapons supplied by my government, and I get to elect my government. This is not absolving the Palestinians of moral responsibility; rather, it’s recognizing where I can make a difference. How on earth is such a realpolitik lunacy? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/62 "2004-05-20T21:01:42Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > Let’s try to pick an example from the last couple decades instead of directly after WWII. I never said it would happen fast. In fact, I implied that it would take a while. (off topic)Of any country in the region where I think Democracy would have a chance due simply to the inclinations of the populace, pre-GWII, I would have guessed Iraq and possibly Iran. I don’t think Iraq, once things are allowed to calm down and they are able to realisticly take the helm (6/30/4 is not realistic) I think that the population of Iraq may actually have a shot. But it aint gonna happen overnight. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/63 "2004-05-20T21:05:15Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I don’t know how to make this clearer. Palestinian terrorists are doing a horrible thing–but they don’t give a shit about my saying that. I have no leverage over them. What am I going to do, encourage my government to fund their enemies? > > The Israeli army is also doing a terrible thing–but I do have some control over that, since they’re doing it with weapons supplied by my government, and I get to elect my government. > > This is not absolving the Palestinians of moral responsibility; rather, it’s recognizing where I can make a difference. How on earth is such a realpolitik lunacy? > > Daniel Daniel, it was perceived as lunacy because when you tack it on to a post asking why more people don’t decry the actions of the Palestinians and instead engage in the villification of the Jews, it appears as if you are supporting their actions because you failed to acknowledge the reason why more people don’t find outrage in Palestinian attacks. Just because you’re pissed that your money goes to actions in Israel is no reason not to be vocal over Palestinian actions, just like you are about Israel’s actions. As an aside-no, you have no control over what your country does with their money. THey never asked you to vote on money for Israel, just like they didn’t ask you to vote on money for the war in Iraq. Sam ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/64 "2004-05-20T21:08:19Z")
> [@NurseCarmen](#): > > I never said it would happen fast. In fact, I implied that it would take a while. > > (off topic)Of any country in the region where I think Democracy would have a chance due simply to the inclinations of the populace, pre-GWII, I would have guessed Iraq and possibly Iran. I don’t think Iraq, once things are allowed to calm down and they are able to realisticly take the helm (6/30/4 is not realistic) I think that the population of Iraq may actually have a shot. But it aint gonna happen overnight. I’ve referred to a timeline on the order of many decades for Iraq to become self-governing instead of this wacky idea that 6/30/04 would work as well. I also would agree with you about Iran. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/65 "2004-05-20T21:22:03Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > Just because you’re pissed that your money goes to actions in Israel is no reason not to be vocal over Palestinian actions, just like you are about Israel’s actions. What good does it do? Yes, of COURSE I decry the actions of Palestinian terrorists. Very few people don’t, and on the rare occasions that anyone defends Palestinian terrorists, everyone jumps all over their ass, and rightly so. > [@](#): > > As an aside-no, you have no control over what your country does with their money. THey never asked you to vote on money for Israel, just like they didn’t ask you to vote on money for the war in Iraq. 😕 They never ask me to vote directly on ANY federal issue. In our representative democracy, instead i vote for representatives who share my views on issues such as funding human-rights-abusers, and then those representatives vote on the issues the way I’d like them to. Am I missing something here? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/66 "2004-05-20T21:32:17Z")
Due respect, Daniel, but isn’t it rather the case that _in theory_ they vote on the issues the way you’d like them to, but in actuality they often vote the way you’d rather they didn’t for the purpose of political expedience, and you don’t really know exactly how they’ve voted on every issue? (Note: Please don’t take this as any sort of attack on your political philosphy; it is an indictment of them, not you. The only possible reflection on you might be a bit of naivity.) ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/67 "2004-05-20T21:36:14Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > They never ask me to vote directly on ANY federal issue. You’re giving up too easily! I suspect the poor harried clerks in my reps and sens offices recognize my name when I email them. I hope (but doubt) that the elected official will recognize my name too! On a related note, never fill out those form letters to your elected official. They have didsdain for fake grassroots mass mailings. In fact, they even have a disdainful name for it. Astroturf-roots. A well thought out and posited note will outweigh a thousand such missives, and have a better chance at actually landing in the hands of the elected official. The old days of the staffers counting a “Positive on this issue”/“Negative on this issue” tally on incoming correspondance are thankfully withering. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/68 "2004-05-20T21:38:11Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > isn’t it rather the case that _in theory_ they vote on the issues the way you’d like them to, but in actuality they often vote the way you’d rather they didn’t for the purpose of political expedience, and you don’t really know exactly how they’ve voted on every issue? Of course; my influence over my representatives is undependable, to say the least. Still, it’s better than my influence on Palestinian terrorists. About all I can do is slap down terrorist apologists when they rear up, which is rarely. I **can** try to convince more Americans to lessen their support of Israel until Israel shapes up; that has some chance of having some effect. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/69 "2004-05-20T21:40:15Z")
> [@NurseCarmen](#): > > You’re giving up too easily! I suspect the poor harried clerks in my reps and sens offices recognize my name when I email them. I hope (but doubt) that the elected official will recognize my name too! No, I mean that at the ballot booth I don’t get to vote on issues. Of course, I’m unforgiveably slack about writing to my representatives about issues; I suppose it’s remotely possible that Elizabeth Dole and my local corrupt-as-hell congressman Carles Taylor will listen to me, but I really ought to be sending more letters to John Edwards. I hang my head in shame. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/70 "2004-05-20T21:41:48Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > And for nyctea, splitting hairs about who’s more advanced or organized and who should be held more accountable for their actions is ridiculous. THey’re both accountable for their actions and neither should have the option of pointing the finger at the other. No one here ever said they weren’t. The Palestinians are held accountable for the acts of a few freaks who blow themselves up…they are held accountable by the Israeli army blowing up a crowd of protesters… Likewise, the Palestinians want to hold the Israelis accountable for their bullying…but lacking an army (and a nation) they resort to crude means (see above). And since they have no army to attack Israel’s army (well they could throw stones at tanks or something) they have to blow up civilians (and themselves). The cycle then continues…and so on and so forth…over and over…ad infinitem This whole story is about the big guy vs. the little guy. The big guy has lots of tanks and guns, and lots of money (and powerful friends). The little guy doesn’t even have a home, has nothing but rocks and crude bombs to blow himself up with. They are not even close to being on a level playing field. THIS is why it infuriates me when Israel (who is supposed to be a civilized Democracy) does such a barbaric thing. I expect barbarism from the Palestinians, not Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/71 "2004-05-20T21:52:59Z")
Daniel, at what point would you stop lessening support for Israel? Suppose that all parties continue with the eye-for-eye tooth-for-tooth business just as they always have and your wish comes true. Would you stop lessening if its defense became untenable? Would you be bothered by the destruction of Israel by Arab and/or Palestinian forces? What would be the effect of an Israeli defeat in a pan-Arab war? ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/72 "2004-05-20T21:55:18Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > 😕 They never ask me to vote directly on ANY federal issue. In our representative democracy, instead i vote for representatives who share my views on issues such as funding human-rights-abusers, and then those representatives vote on the issues the way I’d like them to. Am I missing something here? > > Daniel See Lib’s post for an explanation of my comment. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/73 "2004-05-20T21:56:35Z")
> [@Nyctea](#): > > They are not even close to being on a level playing field. THIS is why it infuriates me when Israel (who is supposed to be a civilized Democracy) does such a barbaric thing. Then I trust that you were infuriated about Ruby Ridge and Waco as well, not to mention the Whiskey Rebellion. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/74 "2004-05-20T22:01:50Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Then I trust that you were infuriated about Ruby Ridge and Waco as well, not to mention the Whiskey Rebellion. Of course I was. Just as I am infuriated about the prison abuse in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/75 "2004-05-20T22:09:46Z")
And you sympathized with Timothy McVeigh’s plight and motivation — the crudely armed struggler against oppression who had no choice but to do what he did, right? ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/76 "2004-05-20T22:12:06Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > And you sympathized with Timothy McVeigh’s plight and motivation — the crudely armed struggler against oppression who had no choice but to do what he did, right? What oppression would that be? ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/77 "2004-05-20T23:58:55Z")
And the [“Bloody Gaza Raid”](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=574&ncid=721&e=2&u=/nm/20040520/wl_nm/mideast_dc) goes on: > [@](#): > > RAFAH, Gaza Strip (Reuters) - An Israeli army helicopter fired a missile into a refugee camp on a third day of heavy fighting in the Gaza Strip in which 41 Palestinians have been killed, witnesses said. > > No immediate reports of casualties emerged from the attack on Thursday as Israel’s military thrust on in its bloodiest Gaza raid in years, defying international fury and a rare U.S. rebuke. Medics say children have been among the raid’s victims. > > \ > > President Bush’s administration showed its displeasure over the Israeli raid by not vetoing a U.N. resolution urging an end to the violence, and U.S. officials pressured Israel to get out of Rafah as quickly as possible. > > Israeli officials declined to say when the army would leave. > > The Jewish state sent troops, backed by helicopters and tanks, storming into Rafah on the border with Egypt after losing 13 soldiers in Gaza ambushes last week. It said the raid was necessary to stop Palestinian militant attacks. > > \ > > Several hundred Israeli peace activists demonstrated outside the Defense Ministry to protest against the military operation, holding signs calling for an immediate withdrawal from Gaza and a stop to the killing. > > “Give Israel back its sense of humanity,” said leading Israeli dove Yossi Beilin, one of the architects of the interim Oslo peace agreement between Israelis and Palestinians. “The government needs to tell the army ‘Come home now’.” > > \ And [here](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040505/wl_nm/mideast_hamas_dc_4) (from May 5) is another article which no one seems to have posted here: **Israel Kills Top Hamas Man, Frees Another** > [@](#): > > BUREIJ REFUGEE CAMP, Gaza (Reuters) - Israel released a co-founder of Hamas to the Gaza Strip but shot and killed another leader of the militant group in the West Bank on Wednesday, witnesses and a military source said. > > … ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/78 "2004-05-21T00:09:12Z")
I hesitate to do this, because this thread has gotten really, really stupid, but what the hell. I mostly agree with **NurseCarmen** , except that I think he’s far too optimistic when it comes to the so-called “Palestinians” establishing a stable, independent nation, complete with a democratic government, in the West Bank and Gaza. The Israelis offered them that at Oslo and they turned it down. In fact, I belive that their greatest victory came when they conned the rest of us into calling them “Palestinians.” Given that 80% percent of them support the suicide bombings, I feel comfortable lumping them all together. Keep in mind that the PLO was founded (and started blowing stuff up) four years _before_ Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza. This is not about the noble liberation of a visciously oppressed people; it’s about the destruction of Israel and the death of all those “filthy Jews.” When you are surrounded by people who aren’t interested in your capitulation, or receiving concessions, but just want you dead and the memory of your existance wiped out, you have to fight back. I have to ask you, **nyctea scandiaca** , what in hell do you think they mean by “from the river to the sea?” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/79 "2004-05-21T12:58:18Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Daniel, at what point would you stop lessening support for Israel? Suppose that all parties continue with the eye-for-eye tooth-for-tooth business just as they always have and your wish comes true. Would you stop lessening if its defense became untenable? Would you be bothered by the destruction of Israel by Arab and/or Palestinian forces? What would be the effect of an Israeli defeat in a pan-Arab war? I’m responsible for my own actions, not for Israel’s. Let me answer with a few questions of my own which will, I hope, help you see where I’m coming from: 1. In the interests of eradicating political naivete, do you really think that Israel would rather collapse under an invasion than change its brutal military policies? 2. Do you think maybe you’re excluding a middle position thereby? 3. Why is a libertarian like you arguing in favor of foreign aid? 4. Is this really the best place to spend our foreign aid, in terms of helping promote the cause of world peace and democracy? Here’s how I’m suggesting it’d work. The US says, "okay, guys, we’ve all sat around the negotiating table for decades, and we’ve come up with plenty of good peace deals. The one flaw these deals had was that you bastards chose not to implement them. So here’s the deal. Six months from today, we go either with this peace deal I’m holding in my hands right now, or else we go with whatever new deal we’ve negotiated by then. "Israel: your obligation will be to comply with your side of the deal, _regardless of whether the Palestinian authority complies with their side of the deal_. If, six months from today, you are not in compliance with the peace deal’s timeline, we’re cutting your military aid by 10%. We will continue to cut your military aid by 10% for every month that you are out of compliance. WE’RE NOT FUCKING AROUND HERE. “Palestinian Authority: we’ve got another pot of money here, not as big as Israel’s, but still significant. Six month from now, if you’re in compliance with the peace deal, you get this pot of money to spend on nonmilitary goods. If you’re not in compliance with the peace deal, it goes to Israel, and they can spend it on weapons or whatever they want. WE’RE NOT FUCKING AROUND HERE.” The US has tremendous influence over Israel: without us, Israel wouldn’t exist. We have a moral obligation to use this influence. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/80 "2004-05-21T13:32:46Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > "Israel: your obligation will be to comply with your side of the deal, _regardless of whether the Palestinian authority complies with their side of the deal_. How the hell is this a survivable position for the Israelis? Remember how the current intifada started? Same thing. We brokered a peace deal in which _Israel offered to give the Palestinians everything they asked for_, then somebody noticed there there were still some Jews actually breathing, and they started blowing stuff up again. Remember the Road Map. Remember how the Israelis began implementing their Phase I obligations in good faith, while the PA didn’t even try to do a goddamned thing? It’s a recurring pattern. We only get a “truce” or “cease fire” when the various terrorist organizations run out of Semtex and suicidal fanatics, and need breathing room to recruit and rearm. Then Israelis start dying again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994.md?page=5)