# Murderers: Israel blows up a crowd of protestors, killing and wounding dozens **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 19, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994 "2004-05-19T17:39:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/121 "2004-05-22T16:25:48Z")
Fuck! Twist OF fate. Blame my girlfriend, I got three hours sleep last night. I’ll post again when I’m not stupid. Sorry all. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/122 "2004-05-22T17:03:45Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Some info: Google Searches: > Results about 87,500 for UN condemns Israel > Results about 29,300 for UN condemns Palestinian Authority > Results about 9,980 for UN condemns PLO > Results about 24,300 for UN condemns Hamas > > (even then, you’ll notice that most hits on the other searches still deal with the UN condemning Israel for **responding** to the PLO, PA, Hamas, etc…) Look, proving bias by Google in this manner is completely meaningless. Apart from anything else, most of the hits will have the search terms in dissociated sentences, such that anything past the first few pages of results are increasingly unrelated; there’s stories in there about condemnation of Israelis being sacked, Israel condemning the UN bombing, etc. etc. Secondly, unlike “Israel” there’s no obvious equivalent search term for the palestinian articles, so of course for any individual search there will be fewer hits. Thirdly, “most hits” deal with UN condemning Israel? Really? You read _most_ of 60-odd thousand hits? Finally, Google won’t even serve you the hits past 1,000, so it’s impossible to even check to see what they are. Google is a marvellous thing, but this is not one of its uses. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/123 "2004-05-22T17:31:02Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Actually, I will try once more, only I won’t waste much time on it. > > Bull fucking shit. I want to give Israel 1.fucking.8 billion fucking dollars a year to spend on military equipment to fight the terrorists with. And you call that nothing? Only I want to attach one teeny tiny proviso to this 1.fucking.8 billion fucking dollars: no massacring kids or uninvolved civilians with it. > > You, on behalf of the Israel government, are crying like a stuck pig that I want to set such an unreasonable proviso on my hugely generous aid. Why? Because your notions (as has been pointed out by **GaWd** and **FinnAgain** ) of what Israel is allowed to do in defending themselves against terrorism seem to be holding Israel to a different standard. They get their aid reduced if they do anything you don’t like. If the terrorists do anything they do that you don’t like, nothing happens. The terrorists strike at civilians on purpose. No consequence. If Israel strikes back at the terrorists, but hits some uninvolved civilians by accident, they get punished. You really don’t see how this is one-sided? Yes, I know tax dollars don’t go to the terrorists. But when other countries (like the Dutch) contribute to the PA and try to get an infrastructure up and running, fucking Arafat steals it. Again, no consequence, at least in your plan. I guess the bottom line is this: You cannot change a situation that is caused or exacerbated by both sides by punishing only one side. That was the point of my bullying analogy earlier. If Johnny is getting his lunch money stolen every day, or beaten up, punishing Johnny for having a baseball bat in his locker is not going to improve the situation. If you don’t do anything about the bullying, trying to stop the bullied from acting does no good and some harm. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/124 "2004-05-22T18:28:24Z")
Shodan, the Palestinians are already punished by the use of US-supplied weapons. So it is only fair. ---
**Author:** ![GGW\_Abu\_Ghraib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@GGW\_Abu\_Ghraib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GGW_Abu_Ghraib)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/125 "2004-05-22T18:30:35Z")
I think we should just drop a couple of divisions of the U.S. Army in Palestine, tell them to find all the bombs and make sure nobody starts any trouble. This will probably slow down the terrorist attacks on Israel, and the Israelis will be less likely to fire AT weapons at civilians if there’s a chance they might accidentally take out a GI or three and get us mad at them too. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/126 "2004-05-22T19:55:28Z")
**Dead Badger** Thanks, I did a bit of research on google algorithms after your comment and you are indeed correct. I retract my statement but will be searching for specific text and numbers of UN resolutions. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/127 "2004-05-22T19:58:52Z")
> [@capacitor](#): > > Shodan, the Palestinians are already punished by the use of US-supplied weapons. So it is only fair. I know this was meant for **shodan** (puts me in mind of System Shock…) I’d still like to answer. The idea that the Palestinians are being ‘punished’ is just flat out wrong. They have declared a war of genocide on Israel and Israel is fighting back. This is no more ‘punishment’ then the Battle of the Bulge was an attempt to ‘punish’ Rommel. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/128 "2004-05-22T20:05:10Z")
> [@GGW Abu Ghraib](#): > > I think we should just drop a couple of divisions of the U.S. Army in Palestine, tell them to find all the bombs and make sure nobody starts any trouble. This will probably slow down the terrorist attacks on Israel, and the Israelis will be less likely to fire AT weapons at civilians if there’s a chance they might accidentally take out a GI or three and get us mad at them too. Personally I’d be more willing to see US troops in Israel than UN troops, at least the US generally supports Israel. The problem of course lies in the fact that it would require the US to occupy a _third_ Arab/Muslim country. (not to mention the fact that unless a sovereign nation invites you in, it’s an invasion, and I’d rather not see the US invade Israel any time soon) I would also point out that the manpower and intel needed for an operation like that would be mind-blowing, especially when PA security forces are, more often than not, in league with the terrorists… I mean… honestly… we can’t even find out what the hell is going on in Iraq, and we freakin’ OWN that country now. P.S. I notice you say that US troops would “probably slow down the terrorist attacks on Israel,” You do realize that this means you’d want Israel to not defend itself on the supposition that terrorism would be lessened and not even eliminated? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/129 "2004-05-24T12:59:14Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > To begin with I have a problem with “objective reality”. Given that you accused me of implicitly supporting the Palestinian terror machine, I think we’ve finally found something we can agree on, you lunatic. **Shodan** , I’ll change my plan: if the Dutch continue to give aid to the Palestinians, we’ll invade their country and make them stop. Happy now? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/130 "2004-05-24T14:11:33Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Given that you accused me of implicitly supporting the Palestinian terror machine, I think we’ve finally found something we can agree Allow me to make this very clear. You want to sanction Israel for the totally unavoidable collateral damage that is part of their effort to stop terrorists. Thus, you will not allow them the ability that any other sovereign nation has. Thus, you implicitly support the Palestinian Terror Machine. Sorry, not crazy at all. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/131 "2004-05-24T14:19:18Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Allow me to make this very clear. > > You want to sanction Israel for the totally unavoidable collateral damage that is part of their effort to stop terrorists. > > Thus, you will not allow them the ability that any other sovereign nation has. > > Thus, you implicitly support the Palestinian Terror Machine. > > Sorry, not crazy at all. Collateral damage _is_ avoidable. Most civilised nations _do_ take steps to avoid collateral damage. Your argument is bullshit, and from what I’ve read of your posts, you’re fucking crazy. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/132 "2004-05-24T14:20:19Z")
> [@](#): > > totally unavoidable collateral damage [Children shot in the back of the head by snipers](http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1220635,00.html). ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/133 "2004-05-24T14:32:52Z")
Unavoidable? _Unavoidable?!_ I’m sorry, but I absolutely and totally disagree. The “collateral damage”, as you so tidily put it, is perfectly avoidable. All you have to do to avoid it is _not_ fire high-explosive tank shells and missiles into packed crowds. How bloody hard can that be? If you need to disperse a crowd, use tear-gas, not shrapnel. The fact that Israel has caused so much loss of innocent life, time and time and time again, just shows what utter disregard they have for the bystanders. How many times does this sort of murderous shit have to happen before people will admit that Israel is doing it intentionally? If they aren’t doing it intentionally, then they’ve certainly killed enough people “by accident” to make the difference between them and the terrorists purely academic. “Totally unavoidable collateral damage”, my ass. that’s got to be one of the most dishonest statements I’ve seen on these boards in a long while, and if you actually _believe_ it, then I’m afraid you really have gone off the deep end. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/134 "2004-05-24T14:34:50Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > Collateral damage _is_ avoidable. Most civilised nations _do_ take steps to avoid collateral damage. > > Your argument is bullshit, and from what I’ve read of your posts, you’re fucking crazy. Collateral damage is avoidable? Please cite one single modern war, ever, where it was completely avoided. Just in case you’re trying to weasel out of this, modern wars only. As in, with ordinance and such. Not tribes runnin’ around with spears. Moreover, cite one war where the enemy purposefully put its bases in residential areas and attacked civilian targets exclusively and there was no collateral damage. My argument is quite tight. And when people start insulting me rather than even attempting to talk facts, I generally know I’ve already won. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/135 "2004-05-24T14:44:02Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Collateral damage is avoidable? > Please cite one single modern war, ever, where it was completely avoided. > Just in case you’re trying to weasel out of this, modern wars only. As in, with ordinance and such. Not tribes runnin’ around with spears. > > Moreover, cite one war where the enemy purposefully put its bases in residential areas and attacked civilian targets exclusively and there was no collateral damage. > > My argument is quite tight. > > And when people start insulting me rather than even attempting to talk facts, I generally know I’ve already won. Do you think that the innocent deaths were unavoidable in the case of this demonstration? How about when firing air-to-surface missiles at cars on crowded streets? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/136 "2004-05-24T14:48:05Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > [Children shot in the back of the head by snipers](http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1220635,00.html). Has there been international analysis of this? Because, it is a recorded fact that the Palestinians pay their children to act as soldiers in the war. [In the southern Gaza Strip, an area of soft sand dunes, Palestinians pay children NIS 20 to 25 ($4.50 to $5) a day to dig tunnels, from their side, under the Israeli lines, to Egypt. Usually it takes three months to complete a tunnel, a senior officer said.](http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040413-025946-3954r.htm) [Israel Defense Forces soldiers on Monday caught a 10-year-old Palestinian boy trying to get a large bomb through a roadblock in the West Bank city of Nablus. ``` Border Police sappers managed to safely detonate the device. The boy was reportedly with a group of school children.](http://backspin.typepad.com/backspin/2004/03/using_children_.html ) ``` [On Monday, Palestinians rallying around Arafat burned tires and threw rocks at soldiers. About 10,000 people rallied in Gaza, many of them school children bused in for the demonstration.](http://www.cbc.ca/cgi-bin/newsworld/viewer.cgi?FILE=NL20020924.html&TEMPLATE=newsreal_archive.ssi&SC=NL) ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/137 "2004-05-24T14:52:21Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Has there been international analysis of this? > Because, it is a recorded fact that the Palestinians pay their children to act as soldiers in the war. > [In the southern Gaza Strip, an area of soft sand dunes, Palestinians pay children NIS 20 to 25 ($4.50 to $5) a day to dig tunnels, from their side, under the Israeli lines, to Egypt. Usually it takes three months to complete a tunnel, a senior officer said.](http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040413-025946-3954r.htm) > > [Israel Defense Forces soldiers on Monday caught a 10-year-old Palestinian boy trying to get a large bomb through a roadblock in the West Bank city of Nablus. > > ``` > Border Police sappers managed to safely detonate the device. The boy was reportedly with a group of school children.](http://backspin.typepad.com/backspin/2004/03/using_children_.html ) > > ``` > > [On Monday, Palestinians rallying around Arafat burned tires and threw rocks at soldiers. About 10,000 people rallied in Gaza, many of them school children bused in for the demonstration.](http://www.cbc.ca/cgi-bin/newsworld/viewer.cgi?FILE=NL20020924.html&TEMPLATE=newsreal_archive.ssi&SC=NL) Nothing that deserves being shot in the head by snipers. do you value Palestinian life as much as Israeli life? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/138 "2004-05-24T14:57:01Z")
Perhaps, **Finn** , in your bizarro world, calling someone a supporter of terrorists doesn’t count as an insult. YOu may believe you’ve already won, but that’s either a sign of hopelessly ideological insanity, or blatant dishonesty. I can’t figure out which it is: do you really believe Palestinians are as demonic as you keep suggesting, or are you disingenuously arguing such in hopes that you can form enough of a smokescreen to hide the Israeli government’s atrocities? I don’t care anymore. I droped out of an earlier discussion because of **Olentzero’s** cavalier attitude toward the murders of Israeli civilians; I’ll have no more to do with you because of your despicable attitude toward the massacres of Palestinian civilians. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/139 "2004-05-24T15:00:32Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > Unavoidable? _Unavoidable?!_ I’m sorry, but I absolutely and totally disagree. The “collateral damage”, as you so tidily put it, is perfectly avoidable. All you have to do to avoid it is _not_ fire high-explosive tank shells and missiles into packed crowds. How bloody hard can that be? That is bullshit. You tell me how they are to avoid collateral damage while still striking back at Hamas when Hamas puts its bases in residential areas? Firing into packed crowds has nothing to do with that, and you know it. > [@Bibliovore](#): > > If you need to disperse a crowd, use tear-gas, not shrapnel. Why? During war if there is a hostile crowd you can certainly blow them to pieces. “innocent” my ass. Poor innocent genocidal monsters, can’t even slaughter all the Jews in peace ~sniffles~ > [@Bibliovore](#): > > If The fact that Israel has caused so much loss of innocent life, time and time and time again, just shows what utter disregard they have for the bystanders. Again BULLSHIT. The fact that it has happened time and again shows that Hamas are cowards who put their bases in tightly packed residential areas in order to draw the ire of leftist-apologists-of-terror, like yourself. Their strategy works quite well with y’all. Blow up some Israeli school children, run back and hide in the Palestinian slums, wait for the Israeli response, reap the tide of public opinion. > [@Bibliovore](#): > > How many times does this sort of murderous shit have to happen before people will admit that Israel is doing it intentionally? If they aren’t doing it intentionally, then they’ve certainly killed enough people “by accident” to make the difference between them and the terrorists purely academic. YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT. What the difference between **targeting** civilians and accidentally hitting them? Motive!!! Besides. If you claim is true, why hasn’t Israel destroyed all the Palestinians with conventional arms by now? They could’ve fire bombed them into oblivion long ago. > [@Bibliovore](#): > > “Totally unavoidable collateral damage”, my ass. that’s got to be one of the most dishonest statements I’ve seen on these boards in a long while, and if you actually _believe_ it, then I’m afraid you really have gone off the deep end. Again, I’m not insane, you’re resorting to ad hominem attacks. Let me put this quite clearly > [@](#): > > -Hamas, the PLO, Islamic Jihad, et al deliberately target Israeli civilians with the goal of causing maximum death. > -As a sovereign nation Israel has the right to defend itself with military force from a military attack > -Hamas et al make their bases in residential areas. > -Striking back at Hamas necessitates either missile strikes from a distance or ‘occupying’ troops on the ground. > -Civilian casualties will result from troops on the ground or missiles fired. > [@Bibliovore](#): > > Do you think that the innocent deaths were unavoidable in the case of this demonstration? How about when firing air-to-surface missiles at cars on crowded streets? In the case of this demonstration? I have yet to see any evidence that this was a peaceful protest, heading into a warzone, in order to disrupt Israeli operations, peacefully. Remember the Jenin ”massacre”? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/140 "2004-05-24T15:04:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Has there been international analysis of this? > Because, it is a recorded fact that the Palestinians pay their children to act as soldiers in the war. The standard Israeli claim is that they are killed in bomb-making accidents. The small holes in the back of their heads and large exit wounds removing half of their faces contradict this. If you are claiming that they were killed while building tunnels or carrying explosives you are making claims that _not even the Israelis_ are making, **FinnAgain**. Indeed, even [Israeli ministers](http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1223100,00.html) are questioning the current actions. (I hereby utterly condemn the targetting of civilians by Hamas, Al Asqa, Islamic Jihad _etc. etc. yadda yadda_). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994.md?page=8)