# Murderers: Israel blows up a crowd of protestors, killing and wounding dozens **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 19, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994 "2004-05-19T17:39:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/141 "2004-05-24T15:04:49Z")
Just to make it clear - I have no problem whatsoever with Israel defending itself against terrorists. But the terrorists should be _arrested and tried_, not assassinated, and certainly not in a way that virtually guarantees massive loss of innocent life. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/142 "2004-05-24T15:05:30Z")
I love the way you claim Bibliovore is making ad-hominem attacks, yet keep calling him an apologist-for-terrorists because he speaks out against the IDF. It’s as simple as this. You don’t care that the IDF kill civilians because those getting killed aren’t Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/143 "2004-05-24T15:05:42Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Perhaps, **Finn** , in your bizarro world, calling someone a supporter of terrorists doesn’t count as an insult. YOu may believe you’ve already won, but that’s either a sign of hopelessly ideological insanity, or blatant dishonesty. Hey, if your policies will end up supporting terrorism, I’ll call you on it. If you are insulted that your policies would end up supporting terrorism, I’d advise you to change them. > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I can’t figure out which it is: do you really believe Palestinians are as demonic as you keep suggesting, or are you disingenuously arguing such in hopes that you can form enough of a smokescreen to hide the Israeli government’s atrocities? I can’t figure out which is it, are you not reading current events or just ignoring them? If you really want I’ll give you cites for the following: The PLO charter calls for the genocide of all Jews in Israel. Between 60 and 80 percent of the Palestinian people support suicide bombings targeted at civilians. > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I don’t care anymore. I droped out of an earlier discussion because of **Olentzero’s** cavalier attitude toward the murders of Israeli civilians; I’ll have no more to do with you because of your despicable attitude toward the massacres of Palestinian civilians. > > Daniel Again. If it is proven that this was indeed not a Jenin style “massacre” then I will extend full condemnation to Israel and the IDF (if this was ordered). Until it is proven, I will assume that the Palestinians are using their same old tactics and that, predictably, the liberals have fallen for it hook-line-and-sinker. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/144 "2004-05-24T15:05:51Z")
**FinnAgain** just try to post this. If they have shot an innocent in the head with a sniper rifle they are wrong. Go on try it it may be quite liberating for you. Terrorists are bastards and the suicide bombers from Palestine are murderers. See it’s easy now you give it a go. BTW just in case you actually need proof that a Israeli would do something wrong :eek: How about a fucker who took out a man using a sniper rifle who was protecting children and then said he was aiming at a terrorist who was armed and wearing combats. Guess what? He was lying and now admits to killing him. [http://www.tomhurndall.co.uk/](http://www.tomhurndall.co.uk/) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/145 "2004-05-24T15:08:30Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > The standard Israeli claim is that they are killed in bomb-making accidents. The small holes in the back of their heads and large exit wounds removing half of their faces contradict this. If you are claiming that they were killed while building tunnels or carrying explosives you are making claims that _not even the Israelis_ are making, **FinnAgain**. Indeed, even [Israeli ministers](http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1223100,00.html) are questioning the current actions. > > (I hereby utterly condemn the targetting of civilians by Hamas, Al Asqa, Islamic Jihad _etc. etc. yadda yadda_). This shouldn’t come as a shock, but I don’t support the murder of civilians, of any religion. I also wouldn’t put it past the Palestinians to shoot their own civilians in order to get some good press. These are people who send children into combat. Show me proof that the Israeli government has a policy of shooting children in the head and I’ll call it a war crime. But Israel will still be justified in using military force to respond to Hamas et al. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/146 "2004-05-24T15:10:11Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > Just to make it clear - I have no problem whatsoever with Israel defending itself against terrorists. But the terrorists should be _arrested and tried_, not assassinated, and certainly not in a way that virtually guarantees massive loss of innocent life. I would agree, assuming the Palestinians would allow it. You tell me, honestly, what would happen if a brigade of Israeli tanks rolled into PA territory in order to arrest the Hamas leadership? Wouldn’t that ensure MORE loss of innocent life? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/147 "2004-05-24T15:10:44Z")
> [@](#): > > What the difference between targeting civilians and accidentally hitting them? > Motive!!! What were they targetting? A non-existent wall of a non-existent house? > [@](#): > > The PLO charter calls for the genocide of all Jews in Israel. No, it does not. That is, perhaps, what murdering filth like Hamas call for. The PLO took the unprecedented step of _recognising_ Israel in Oslo in 1993. [Letters of Mutual Recognition.](http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/isrplo.htm) ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/148 "2004-05-24T15:12:23Z")
lets say there are two suspected terrorists in an apartment complex in Tel Aviv. would you think it ok for the IDF to fire a missile into the apartment complex, killing dozens of innocent Israeli citizens just to make sure the two suspected terrorists were dead? If you don’t agree with this, how do you support them doing the same to apartment complexes in Palestinian areas? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/149 "2004-05-24T15:13:08Z")
> [@TwistofFate](#): > > I love the way you claim Bibliovore is making ad-hominem attacks, yet keep calling him an apologist-for-terrorists because he speaks out against the IDF. > > It’s as simple as this. You don’t care that the IDF kill civilians because those getting killed aren’t Jewish. Survey says: Nope. Fact is, if you want Israel punished for collateral damage, you are an apologist for terror, because your position emboldens and strengthens them. Doesn’t matter if you realize this fact, it’s still true. And, I certainly care if civilians are murdered. I simply doubt that many Palestinians are as ‘innocent’ as their propaganda claims. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/150 "2004-05-24T15:15:49Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > **FinnAgain** just try to post this. > > If they have shot an innocent in the head with a sniper rifle they are wrong. > > Go on try it it may be quite liberating for you. > \ Wow, what a surprise. You cross posted with me and I already said that. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/151 "2004-05-24T15:16:54Z")
> [@](#): > > I simply doubt that many Palestinians are as ‘innocent’ as their propaganda claims. Same kinda thinking led to 13 people being murdered on the streets of Derry on Bloody Sunday. It’s as wrong and actually at the end of the day idiotic then as it is now. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/152 "2004-05-24T15:17:29Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Survey says: Nope. > > Fact is, if you want Israel punished for collateral damage, you are an apologist for terror, because your position emboldens and strengthens them. Doesn’t matter if you realize this fact, it’s still true. I hate to say it, but you repeating it over and over doesn’t make it true. > [@](#): > > And, I certainly care if civilians are murdered. > > I simply doubt that many Palestinians are as ‘innocent’ as their propaganda claims. Can Israel really do no wrong in your eyes? Can Palestine do any right? I’m suprised you don’t get sideswiped more often given the restrictive blinkers you are wearing. Rather than any assumption of the innocence of Palestinian kids, you would rather dream up some sort of justification for them to be shot in the head by snipers. That’s very sad indeed. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/153 "2004-05-24T15:19:18Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > What were they targetting? A non-existent wall of a non-existent house? No, they were trying to disperse a crowd of Palestinians moving into a war zone. The Palestinians declared war on Israel. Thus, a crowd of enemies headed into a war zone is a valid military target. (and yes, it’d be real nice to think they were all civilians, but the Israels don’t have that luxury. The Palestinians routinely send women and children to kill Isrealis) > [@SentientMeat](#): > > No, it does not. That is, perhaps, what murdering filth like Hamas call for. The PLO took the unprecedented step of _recognising_ Israel in Oslo in 1993. > > [Letters of Mutual Recognition.](http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/isrplo.htm) Unfortunately you’ve fallen for propaganda. Sure, they recognized it at Oslo (and then responded with suicide bombings). BUT. The charter is STILL not changed. And I challenge you to find a copy of the charter, in English or Arabic, where they recognize the right of Israel to exist. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/154 "2004-05-24T15:20:41Z")
> [@TwistofFate](#): > > lets say there are two suspected terrorists in an apartment complex in Tel Aviv. would you think it ok for the IDF to fire a missile into the apartment complex, killing dozens of innocent Israeli citizens just to make sure the two suspected terrorists were dead? > > If you don’t agree with this, how do you support them doing the same to apartment complexes in Palestinian areas? Oh COME ON!!! Do you think the Israelis in tel aviv would riot if the IDF came to arrest terrorists? Do you think the Palestinians wouldn’t riot if the IDF came to arrest terrorists? Face facts, the situation is NOT equal on both sides. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/155 "2004-05-24T15:21:16Z")
Yeah try saying it without the stupid qualification > [@](#): > > This shouldn’t come as a shock, but I don’t support the murder of civilians, of any religion. > > I also wouldn’t put it past the Palestinians to shoot their own civilians in order to get some good press. Which coincidentally is what was said about Bloody Sunday as well. You guys really need to brush up on your shite. The Brits have already beaten you too all the good rationalisations for murdering people whom are looking for some rights and justice in their own fucking land. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/156 "2004-05-24T15:22:09Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Same kinda thinking led to 13 people being murdered on the streets of Derry on Bloody Sunday. > > It’s as wrong and actually at the end of the day idiotic then as it is now. I fail to see why it is wrong to recognize the factual reality that the Palestians use women and children in their war as well as that 60-80% of their society wants genocide and/or attacks targeted at Israeli civilians. Again, this is the factual reality. Why is it wrong to say it? ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/157 "2004-05-24T15:24:07Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > [Children shot in the back of the head by snipers](http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1220635,00.html). Articles such as this make me wonder where exactly the bullets came from… [Official IDF Source Confirms: Have Photos of Palestinians Killing 2 Palestinian Children](http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=20934) (Without the release of the pictures referenced, it’s difficult to say how credible the source is.) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/158 "2004-05-24T15:27:07Z")
> [@TwistofFate](#): > > I hate to say it, but you repeating it over and over doesn’t make it true. No, the inherent truth value makes it true. 1. There is virtually zero international pressure on Arafat. 2. Arafat et al direct terrorist attacks at Israel. 3. Israel responds with assassinations. 4. There is global condemnation of ISRAEL ONLY. 5. Terrorists receive support in that their enemy is limited. QED. > [@TwistofFate](#): > > Can Israel really do no wrong in your eyes? > Can Palestine do any right? Ya know… since the Palestinians want the genocide of the Jews, I’m kinda willing to grant Israel the right to defense-under-extraordinary-circumstances. And, sure the Palestinians could do right in my eyes: Arrest all the terrorists, police their own people, stop the Intifada. > [@TwistofFate](#): > > I’m suprised you don’t get sideswiped more often given the restrictive blinkers you are wearing. Rather than any assumption of the innocence of Palestinian kids, you would rather dream up some sort of justification for them to be shot in the head by snipers. That’s very sad indeed. Fair enough, but you know what I think is **really** sad? The fact that the Palestinians regularly use children in military operations and you’re shocked that Palestinian children are becoming targets of war. \*\* stop them from sending their children to kill and die and they’ll stop killing and dying!!!\*\* Again, this isn’t a dream. I have factual support for the pattern of Palestinian war making. I don’t know why the liberals are so damn insistent on ignoring the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/159 "2004-05-24T15:27:14Z")
**FinnAgain** , I disagree with you on so many issues here that I barely know where to start. But I think the most important and fundamental point of contention is that you don’t really seem to believe that there is such a thing as an “innocent” Palestinian. I may be misinterpreting your posts, but that’s the way you’re coming across. According to you, even children are fair game in this conflict because they’re “soldiers”. So let’s try to clear that up right now and work from there - _do you believe that there is such a thing as an innocent Palestinian?_ And by “innocent”, I mean one that is not an active member of a terrorist organisation and who does not attack the IDF or Israeli civilians. Answer that one, and we’ll have something to work with ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/160 "2004-05-24T15:29:04Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Yeah try saying it without the stupid qualification Which coincidentally is what was said about Bloody Sunday as well. You guys really need to brush up on your shite. Yeah… a ‘stupid’ qualification that as long as they weren’t being used a soldiers it was wrong. How stupid of me! And, just because similar justifications were used for two different events does not make them the same. Evaluate each, separately, on its own merits. Shame on you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994.md?page=9)