# Murderers: Israel blows up a crowd of protestors, killing and wounding dozens **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 19, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994 "2004-05-19T17:39:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/161 "2004-05-24T15:33:51Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yeah… a ‘stupid’ qualification that as long as they weren’t being used a soldiers it was wrong. > How stupid of me! > > And, just because similar justifications were used for two different events does not make them the same. > > Evaluate each, separately, on its own merits. > > Shame on you. Well excuse the fuck out of me. I do believe you said > [@](#): > > I also wouldn’t put it past the Palestinians to shoot their own civilians in order to get some good press. Which implies to me your talking about the PA killing these people to place blame on the IDF. You were talking about that weren’t you because now your saying that they were soldiers and not civilians? What does > [@](#): > > I also wouldn’t put it past the Palestinians to shoot their own civilians in order to get some good press. mean if not what I took it to mean? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/162 "2004-05-24T15:34:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Thus, a crowd of enemies headed into a war zone is a valid military target. If Israel is a war zone, this would justify Hamas bombing a bus it thinks an IDF agent is “hiding” in. Might the IDF not blow up its own buses as a PR exercise? Let us forego such nonsense. The Israeli Army has, and continues to, opened fire on children who _weren’t_ carrying explosives or buiding tunnels. It has fired missiles at crowds of civilians. Defend this if you will. > [@](#): > > The charter is STILL not changed. And neither do the PLO govern a viable state. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/163 "2004-05-24T15:35:05Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > **FinnAgain** , > > I disagree with you on so many issues here that I barely know where to start. But I think the most important and fundamental point of contention is that you don’t really seem to believe that there is such a thing as an “innocent” Palestinian. I may be misinterpreting your posts, but that’s the way you’re coming across. According to you, even children are fair game in this conflict because they’re “soldiers”. Sure there are innocent Palestinians. If 60% of them support terrorism directed at Israeli civilians, there are 40% of 'em who are innocent. If 80%, then there are 20% that are innocent. I’m sorry, but a desire for genocide is enough to disqualify you from ‘innocence’ in my book. Again, yep. If the Palestinians use children as soldiers, then unfortunately Israel has to shoot them in a war. It’s sad, it’s sick, but it’s the Palestinians’ fault. > [@Bibliovore](#): > > So let’s try to clear that up right now and work from there - _do you believe that there is such a thing as an innocent Palestinian?_ And by “innocent”, I mean one that is not an active member of a terrorist organisation and who does not attack the IDF or Israeli civilians. > > Answer that one, and we’ll have something to work with Yes, I believe some Palestinians are innocent. I also believe that the majority of them want to murder all the Jews and destroy the state of Israel, and are thus not innocent. Now. If they provide moral and material support to terrorists, and if terrorists wear no uniform, and there’s no way to pick them out from the general population… So yeah. If an entire society-as-a-whole (check the PLO charter) is at war with you, I think that it’s fairly safe to assume most of 'em want your death. **And YES, the IDF may very well have killed INNOCENT CIVILIANS and if they have it is a HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE EVENT. But they HAVE to defend themselves from terrorism, and there will be accidental deaths due to the fog of war. It’s horrible, but I have a way so NO more Palestinians will be killed: They put down their arms and rejoin negotiations!** ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/164 "2004-05-24T15:41:07Z")
> [@](#): > > No, they were trying to disperse a crowd of Palestinians moving into a war zone. I admit, I missed this beautiful choice of phrase. I’d say they were dispersed quite successfully, some of them over a wide area. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/165 "2004-05-24T16:12:54Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > …I have a way so NO more Palestinians will be killed: They put down their arms and rejoin negotiations!\*\*\*\* [Why Not Palestinian Elections?](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50666-2004May23.html) > [@](#): > > Only because Sharon strongly opposes any Palestinian election. The Israeli warrior still dreams of finishing off his old nemesis by other means, like expulsion or assassination. And the emergence of a strong and responsible Palestinian cabinet would refute the central rationale of current Israeli policy – that there is no Palestinian “partner” for peace and none can be expected for years. That principle justifies Sharon’s plan to unilaterally draw new borders for Israel, fortify them with walls and fences – and thereby annex far more territory in the West Bank and Jerusalem than Israel could ever hope to obtain through **negotiations.** It’s an insight into the mindset of the Israeli murderers. Promote the chaos, steal the territory. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/166 "2004-05-24T16:20:01Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Sure there are innocent Palestinians. > If 60% of them support terrorism directed at Israeli civilians, there are 40% of 'em who are innocent. > If 80%, then there are 20% that are innocent. > > I’m sorry, but a desire for genocide is enough to disqualify you from ‘innocence’ in my book. > > Again, yep. > If the Palestinians use children as soldiers, then unfortunately Israel has to shoot them in a war. > It’s sad, it’s sick, but it’s the Palestinians’ fault. > > Yes, I believe some Palestinians are innocent. > I also believe that the majority of them want to murder all the Jews and destroy the state of Israel, and are thus not innocent. > > Now. > > If they provide moral and material support to terrorists, and if terrorists wear no uniform, and there’s no way to pick them out from the general population… > > So yeah. > > If an entire society-as-a-whole (check the PLO charter) is at war with you, I think that it’s fairly safe to assume most of 'em want your death. > > **And YES, the IDF may very well have killed INNOCENT CIVILIANS and if they have it is a HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE EVENT. But they HAVE to defend themselves from terrorism, and there will be accidental deaths due to the fog of war. It’s horrible, but I have a way so NO more Palestinians will be killed: They put down their arms and rejoin negotiations!** I see. So the Palstinians are using women and children as soldiers, and the Palestinians are shooting their own children in the head so that they can blame it on IDF snipers, am I right? And about 60 - 80% of the Palestinians are viable military targets because they want to kill all the Jews and wipe the State of Israel off the map. And the remaining 20 - 40% of Palestinians who aren’t viable targets are pretty much indistinguishable from the others anyway… Well then it looks like we really don’t have all that much to say to each other after all. Sorry to waste your time, and have a nice life ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/167 "2004-05-24T16:30:15Z")
**yojimbo** , yes, it needs to be investigated if those children were killed by PA snipers or Israelis, and if they were killed by Israelis if they were serving as soldiers for the PA. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/168 "2004-05-24T16:38:52Z")
Or maybe Jew hating aliens did it. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/169 "2004-05-24T16:51:27Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > I admit, I missed this beautiful choice of phrase. > > I’d say they were dispersed quite successfully, some of them over a wide area. Yep, a group of enemies moving into a combat zone were killed… (there is no moral or ethical claim that the IDF has to ‘play nice’ with the folks who declared war on Israel. That’s war, if they don’t like it, the Palestinians should rejoin negotiations and stop the violence) Yes, if they were innocent it WAS an ATTROCIOUS attack. However. Remember that the fog of war is not just an abstraction. And in the heat of battle a tank commander might very well decide to fire a shell into a mob that he felt was hostile. > [@SentientMeat](#): > > If Israel is a war zone, this would justify Hamas bombing a bus it thinks an IDF agent is “hiding” in. Might the IDF not blow up its own buses as a PR exercise? It depends, if Hamas was TARGETING military targets and civilians got caught in the crossfire? I’d still say the Intifada was morally bankrupt, but I’d at least say there weren’t acting like genocidal monsters. > [@SentientMeat](#): > > Let us forego such nonsense. The Israeli Army has, and continues to, opened fire on children who weren’t carrying explosives or buiding tunnels. It has fired missiles at crowds of civilians. Defend this if you will. YES. Let’s get rid of the nonsense please. If the Palestinians routinely use their children, women, and young men to orchestrate attacks against civilians while the Palestinians wear NO uniforms or ways to mark them as combatants, then WHY can you fault the Israelis for not being sure which Palestinians are out to kill them and which aren’t? Could YOU tell if it was YOUR life on the line? > [@Sentient Meat](#): > > And neither do the PLO govern a viable state. Um… So fucking what? Because they don’t have a viable state, having a charter which calls for genocide is cool? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/170 "2004-05-24T16:54:43Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Or maybe Jew hating aliens did it. Oh come now. The fact that the Palestinians are, again, sending children and women to fight is quite plausible. Your facetious little denial is beneath you. ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/171 "2004-05-24T16:57:58Z")
Even soldiers in the israeli army have refused to carry out their orders. [http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp](http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp) You can find lots of other cites for this too. What does that say about these orders - that even members of the IDF find them immoral, and are willing to be branded as traitors rather than obey them. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/172 "2004-05-24T17:02:50Z")
> [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](#): > > What does that say about these orders - that even members of the IDF find them immoral, and are willing to be branded as traitors rather than obey them. That Israel is a functional democracy and that their military is more moral than the Palestinians? How many members of Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad et al refuse to participate due to THEIR orders? How many of them that object get to survive, period? I’m sure some of the IDF orders are viewed as beyond the pale, but the fact that they can object and not be shot is proof of something, that’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/173 "2004-05-24T17:21:11Z")
Did you even read any of the statements by the officers who signed that letter. As just one example… > [@](#): > > For more than ten years I have been doing reserve duty in the territories. Each time I would return home and ask myself, “Why did I do that?” But when called to reserve duty the following year, I would once again report, because being part of the establishment is much easier than going against it. The obedience that once made me proud is now making me ashamed. I will no longer do as others and turn a blind eye to what I know is right. > > In the army I acquired the courage to fire tear-gas into schools, the courage to shoot rubber bullets at stone throwers, the courage to drive an armored jeep recklessly through Arab villages and the courage to show disregard for human life. Now I have acquired one more thing, but this time it wasn’t from the army, that is the courage to say, “I will do this no more.” The Courage to Refuse. > > Mike Raphaeli ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/174 "2004-05-24T22:06:55Z")
> [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](#): > > Did you even read any of the statements by the officers who signed that letter. As just one example… > [@](#): > > In the army I acquired the courage to fire tear-gas into schools, the courage to shoot rubber bullets at stone throwers, the courage to drive an armored jeep recklessly through Arab villages and the courage to show disregard for human life. Now I have acquired one more thing, but this time it wasn’t from the army, that is the courage to say, “I will do this no more.” The Courage to Refuse. Funny… firing rubber bullets at people throwing stones seems like exercising restraint. Oh, I know, the liberals fall all over themselves to say “but they were only throwing rocks!” Guess what, you’re just as dead if you catch a rock to the head as if you catch a bullet. And, nothing I saw from this said that the soldier was objecting to orders to shoot kids in the head. Nothing he was objecting to was even a crime. The worst being “driving a jeep recklessly.” If that’s the best you can do, it’s kinda ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/175 "2004-05-25T00:04:12Z")
Has an IDF been killed by a thrown rock to the head? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/176 "2004-05-25T00:58:57Z")
> [@capacitor](#): > > Has an IDF been killed by a thrown rock to the head? Has the IDF stood around like good lil’ targets while the enemy was using lethal and/or enough force to at the very least break bones? What course of action would YOU feel entitled to if you were being chased by a mob of people hurling bricks at your head? ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/177 "2004-05-25T01:12:59Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Funny… firing rubber bullets at people throwing stones seems like exercising restraint. Restraint? Rubber bullets - as used by the Israelis - can kill people … see [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/24/health/main510084.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/24/health/main510084.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/178 "2004-05-25T01:28:24Z")
If you had read the information on the link sent to you previously, you would have seen that the demonstrators are not just Palestinians, but also Israeli members of ‘Courage to Refuse’. [http://www.seruv.org.il/english/default.asp](http://www.seruv.org.il/english/default.asp) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/179 "2004-05-25T01:45:17Z")
> [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](#): > > Restraint? Rubber bullets - as used by the Israelis - can kill people … Rubber bullets as used by anybody can kill people. The point is that the Israelis are using the best known crowd control, and if they’re untrained and met by mobs who want to kill them, and the kids get nervous and don’t maintain proper firing discipline, yes, it’s a drag, but they’ll be casualties. > [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](#): > > If you had read the information on the link sent to you previously, you would have seen that the demonstrators are not just Palestinians, but also Israeli members of ‘Courage to Refuse’. I’m unaware of any time I explicitly stated that Israel doesn’t have a refusnik element in its population. Nor have I ever stated that having such a segment of your population is in any way wrong or bad. So, there is dissent within a democracy while the Palestinians, as per the PLO charter, are set up to regard Jihad as their primary purpose in education, and not math and science. ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994/180 "2004-05-25T15:21:15Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I’m unaware of any time I explicitly stated that Israel doesn’t have a refusnik element in its population. Nor have I ever stated that having such a segment of your population is in any way wrong or bad. A number of times on this thread the protestors have been referred to as ‘Palestinians’. I was just trying to point out that that was not necessarily the case and that some Israelis, too, were outraged enough at their government’s policies to join these protests. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murderers-israel-blows-up-a-crowd-of-protestors-killing-and-wounding-dozens/245994.md?page=10)