# Murdering the same person twice **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 30, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murdering-the-same-person-twice/458270 "2008-07-30T19:57:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murdering-the-same-person-twice/458270/1 "2008-07-30T19:57:52Z")
Say a man is convicted on overwhelming circumstantial evidence of killing his wife, although no sign of her body is found. He’s sentenced to 20 years, serves his time, and on his release proceeds to track her down, convinced that she framed him. He finds her and kills her. Can he be charged with her murder again? Would double jeopardy protect him? ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2008, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murdering-the-same-person-twice/458270/2 "2008-07-30T20:04:26Z")
Only if he’s Ashley Judd. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2008, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murdering-the-same-person-twice/458270/3 "2008-07-30T20:06:55Z")
Yes, he can be charged with murder again. The first conviction was for killing this person at this time in this way. Killing her on a differnt day is a different crime entirely, and liable for prosecution. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2008, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murdering-the-same-person-twice/458270/4 "2008-07-30T20:07:04Z")
Nope, the “second” murder would be a separate crime for which he could again be tried, convicted, and sentenced. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2008, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murdering-the-same-person-twice/458270/5 "2008-07-30T20:07:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Double jeopardy does not, by the way, give you a free pass to commit a subsequent crime if it should turn out that you were unjustly convicted, Hollywood scriptwriter fantasies notwithstanding. In the eponymous movie, Ashley Judd plays a woman wrongly convicted for her husband’s murder; the man had faked his death and let his wife take the rap. Judd’s character discovers the truth and tracks down the husband intending to kill him for his betrayal, reasoning that since she’s been convicted once for his murder, double jeopardy would protect her from prosecution. Not so in real life: a crime, for double jeopardy purposes, consists of a specific set of facts. Change the facts and you’ve got a new crime – the murder of Richard Roe on Wednesday, December 8th, in New York City is not the same crime in double jeopardy analysis as the murder of Richard Roe in New York City on Friday, February 5th, even though it’s the same victim. This seems to confuse people greatly, perhaps because it’s unusual to discuss murdering the same person twice. But a moment’s thought will make it clear: if the charge were, say, aggravated assault, no one would believe that a person convicted of beating Richard Roe to a pulp on December 8th could avoid another conviction for tracking down poor Rich again in February and whaling on him again. [http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mjeopardy.htm](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mjeopardy.htm) ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2008, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murdering-the-same-person-twice/458270/6 "2008-07-30T20:12:57Z")
“I served time for holding up that Denny’s, so now I can hold it up any time I want and Double Jeopardy will keep them from prosecuting me. I already was convicted of holding up that Denny’s, so they cannot charge me twice for the same thing.” ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2008, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murdering-the-same-person-twice/458270/7 "2008-07-30T21:08:21Z")
In fairness, the State should vacate the first conviction, since our “bigacidist” was obviously innocent of that crime. . . . ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2008, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murdering-the-same-person-twice/458270/8 "2008-07-30T21:27:40Z")
So there’s no loophole like, “You can’t murder someone who’s already (legally) dead”? ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2008, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murdering-the-same-person-twice/458270/9 "2008-07-30T22:06:23Z")
[QUOTE=DrFidelius] Yes, he can be charged with murder again. The first conviction was for killing this person **at this time in this way.** Killing her on a differnt day is a different crime entirely, and liable for prosecution. [/QUOTE] So if we HAD a TIME Machine though and learned from our mistakes of the FIRST time… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2008, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murdering-the-same-person-twice/458270/10 "2008-07-30T22:29:00Z")
[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63] So there’s no loophole like, “You can’t murder someone who’s already (legally) dead”? [/QUOTE] That’d be a nutty loophole. First, they might be legally presumed dead, but that’s not permanent when you’re factually alive. [http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mlegallydead.html](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mlegallydead.html) Second, that’d make it legal for anybody to kill the presumed dead: Strangers, muggers, terrorists. All based on a legal presumption. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2008, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murdering-the-same-person-twice/458270/11 "2008-07-30T22:32:46Z")
[QUOTE=Gfactor] That’d be a nutty loophole. First, they might be legally presumed dead, but that’s not permanent when you’re factually alive. [http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mlegallydead.html](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mlegallydead.html) Second, that’d make it legal for anybody to kill the presumed dead: Strangers, muggers, terrorists. All based on a legal presumption. [/QUOTE] Yes, but the legal world is full of many things nutty. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murdering-the-same-person-twice/458270/12 "2008-07-31T00:57:12Z")
What would happen if a lawyer pled his client out but asked for “time served” on the earlier bogus conviction? And, isn’t it true that it’s very very hard to convict without a body? I remember one case but the experts said that the amount of blood found would certainly mean a dead body, and the blood matched the “missing” wife. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murdering-the-same-person-twice/458270/13 "2008-07-31T01:08:34Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] What would happen if a lawyer pled his client out but asked for “time served” on the earlier bogus conviction? [/QUOTE] That would work, of course, but only if the prosecutor was willing to go for it. This might happens in some cases, particularly if the prosecution was embarassed about the whole situation. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murdering-the-same-person-twice/458270/14 "2008-07-31T01:17:34Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] [QUOTE=DrDeth] What would happen if a lawyer pled his client out but asked for “time served” on the earlier bogus conviction? [/QUOTE] That would work, of course, but only if the prosecutor was willing to go for it. This might happens in some cases, particularly if the prosecution was embarassed about the whole situation. [/QUOTE] It’s only a possibility if the statute gives a sentence of less than life for murder. If there’s an automatic life sentence for murder, there’s no scope for time served. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murdering-the-same-person-twice/458270/15 "2008-07-31T01:21:27Z")
[QUOTE=Northern Piper] It’s only a possibility if the statute gives a sentence of less than life for murder. If there’s an automatic life sentence for murder, there’s no scope for time served. [/QUOTE] Well, if that were the case, then the hypothetical killer would never have been free to commit the murder a “second” time, now would he? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murdering-the-same-person-twice/458270/16 "2008-07-31T01:50:13Z")
even if a life sentence is structured to allow for parole, you’re still under the sentence, and subject to the terms of one’s parole for life. break the terms of parole, and you can be re-jugged without trial. ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murdering-the-same-person-twice/458270/17 "2008-07-31T14:39:31Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] And, isn’t it true that it’s very very hard to convict without a body? [/QUOTE] Aren’t you the guy who started the _Where can I rent a wood chipper?_ thread? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murdering-the-same-person-twice/458270/18 "2008-07-31T14:50:17Z")
> [@](#): > > So if we HAD a TIME Machine though and learned from our mistakes of the FIRST time… “Most curious. There’s every indication that the victim was held down by several people and stabbed repeatedly with different strengths and knives. But there’s only one set of prints!” ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murdering-the-same-person-twice/458270/19 "2008-07-31T15:17:20Z")
@Leaper: nitpick. A is jailed for killing B, but B isn’t really dead. B commits crime, gets sent to jail, and how serendipitous! A and B are cell mates! Wanted to buy: combination wood chipper/time machine/knife sharpener.