# Muscle Car Shootout: Would today's fastest cars shut down the '60s-'70s muscle cars? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 19, 2006, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscle-car-shootout-would-todays-fastest-cars-shut-down-the-60s-70s-muscle-cars/361293 "2006-06-19T13:57:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2006, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscle-car-shootout-would-todays-fastest-cars-shut-down-the-60s-70s-muscle-cars/361293/21 "2006-06-20T15:32:59Z")
[QUOTE=LSLGuy] I recently read a newspaper article about a Mustang collector whose '66 or '67 big-engine Mustang was turning just about the same times as the period advertising offered. in other words, despite being old, it was still healthy. His wife’s 2005 Nissan Murano SUV([http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/news/column/letterstoeditors/05.february/05.nissan.murano.500.jpg](http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/news/column/letterstoeditors/05.february/05.nissan.murano.500.jpg)) would beat it in the 1/4 mile by 1/2 second. Just goes to show that cars are vastly more powerful & capable than they were in the 60s. [/QUOTE] I don’t think the Mustangs typically were on the frontline of the 60s-70s muscle cars. Second tier, perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![LiveOnAPlane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3d9bf3/32.png) [@LiveOnAPlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LiveOnAPlane)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2006, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscle-car-shootout-would-todays-fastest-cars-shut-down-the-60s-70s-muscle-cars/361293/22 "2006-06-20T15:40:24Z")
[QUOTE=Carnac the Magnificent!] I don’t think the Mustangs typically were on the frontline of the 60s-70s muscle cars. Second tier, perhaps? [/QUOTE] Pretty much, yes. The early ones were definitely second-tier to the GTOs, SS396s, etc. Even the 1967 390 Mustang was not, usually, as fast as these cars. I know, I owned both a 1966 w a 289 V-8 and a 1967 with a 390 V-8. The 390 was strong, but not a match for a GTO with three deuces, for example. The 1968 428 Cobra Jet was a different matter. It was a front-runner. The 1969 and 1970 CJs were also very quick for their time, turning quarter mile times around 13.8-13.9 according to the car tests. So I guess it all depends on where one draws the line. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2006, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscle-car-shootout-would-todays-fastest-cars-shut-down-the-60s-70s-muscle-cars/361293/23 "2006-06-20T16:44:18Z")
[QUOTE=Jayrot] Who would win if Babe Ruth were driving the Chevelle and Barry Bonds were driving the Accord? [/QUOTE] Are either of the cars on a treadmill? Because that might matter. ---
**Author:** ![WonJohnSoup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f17d59/32.png) [@WonJohnSoup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WonJohnSoup)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2006, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscle-car-shootout-would-todays-fastest-cars-shut-down-the-60s-70s-muscle-cars/361293/24 "2006-06-20T22:24:43Z")
[QUOTE=Carnac the Magnificent!] I hear you, but at least the old muscle cars _sounded_ like muscle cars. A lot of the late Japanese imports sound like hell when the turbocharger kicks on and off–some kind of popping sound. That said, the new Mustangs sound great… [/QUOTE] Most people wouldn’t really consider most any of these new generation Japanese speedsters to be “muscle cars.” Most of the import enthusiasts nowadays might even get a little offended being associated with the idea. And that “pop” from turbo might be a blow-off valve the driver installed. I knew a guy who had one installed into his WRX, mostly to make people jump in the parking lots :rolleyes: . Usually the girls would just go “your car sounds broken,” everytime he shifted, haha. It sounds more like a “pssshhht!!!” though, so we might be talking about two different things. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscle-car-shootout-would-todays-fastest-cars-shut-down-the-60s-70s-muscle-cars/361293/25 "2006-06-21T05:01:11Z")
[QUOTE=Carnac the Magnificent!] A couple of points: 2) A couple of other posters, Shaggy among them, mentioned the tendency of the old muscle cars to sit spinning their wheels, because they lacked traction control. But anyone with any racing experience knows better than sitting their at the green light, spinning his tires. Wouldn’t the better way be to hit the gas, but not enough to “boil” the tires? Once you get traction, THEN punch it. [/QUOTE] Dude, the traction controls on my car update and recalculate every 7 milliseconds. No way in hell you can out drive the computer. Sorry, but it is true, HAL can out drive you. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![mike1dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@mike1dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mike1dog)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2006, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscle-car-shootout-would-todays-fastest-cars-shut-down-the-60s-70s-muscle-cars/361293/26 "2006-07-01T15:43:23Z")
It seems kind of unfair to me to put modern tires on those old cars. Bias ply tires were what they came with from the factory after all. They were probably advanced tires then, but compared to even a cheap radial tire today, they didn’t get much traction. If you think it’s easy to launch a car that has four hundred horse power, most of its weight over its front wheels and an crude rear suspension, then you probably haven’t tried it. Remember that most of these cars were simply a midsized car body crammed with the biggest motor they could stuff in there. Otherwise, they were’nt much different from the six cylinder version of the car. For example, the Plymouth Barracuda with a hemi came standard with drum brakes on the front, hardly what you’d consider high tech even then. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscle-car-shootout-would-todays-fastest-cars-shut-down-the-60s-70s-muscle-cars/361293/27 "2006-07-03T16:54:57Z")
Is there some kind of average figure for the percentage of HP lost from flywheel and drivetrain connections (as **Sam Stone** described)? For example, if we take a 1969 Corvette ZL-1, which is generally considered to have well in excess of 500 HP (though officially rated at 430 HP by Chevy) what would todays SAE rating have been? Is the 430 HP “official” rating actually close to what the SAE rating would have been? ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscle-car-shootout-would-todays-fastest-cars-shut-down-the-60s-70s-muscle-cars/361293/28 "2006-07-03T17:25:06Z")
> [@Jayrot](#): > > Who would win if Babe Ruth were driving the Chevelle and Barry Bonds were driving the Accord? [QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Trick question. Ruth’d be driving drunk. [/QUOTE] Trick question. Unless the Accord had a sunroof, Bonds’ massive 'roid skull wouldn’t even fit in the passenger compartment. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscle-car-shootout-would-todays-fastest-cars-shut-down-the-60s-70s-muscle-cars/361293/29 "2006-07-03T17:31:37Z")
[QUOTE=Cuckoorex] Is there some kind of average figure for the percentage of HP lost from flywheel and drivetrain connections (as **Sam Stone** described)? For example, if we take a 1969 Corvette ZL-1, which is generally considered to have well in excess of 500 HP (though officially rated at 430 HP by Chevy) what would todays SAE rating have been? Is the 430 HP “official” rating actually close to what the SAE rating would have been? [/QUOTE] From [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower#History_of_the_term_.22horsepower.22): > [@](#): > > Because SAE gross ratings were applied liberally, at best, there is no precise conversion from gross to net. Comparison of gross and net ratings for unchanged engines show a variance of anywhere from 40 to 150 horsepower. The Chrysler 426 Hemi, for example, in 1971 carried a 425 hp gross rating (often considered to be underrated) and a net rating of 375 hp. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscle-car-shootout-would-todays-fastest-cars-shut-down-the-60s-70s-muscle-cars/361293/30 "2006-07-03T17:39:19Z")
Yikes. Another muscle car fantasy gets bitchslapped by reality. In related news, Dodge has officially greenlighted production for the new 2008 Challenger! I’m going to start saving up money now for a Plup Crazy Challenger… ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscle-car-shootout-would-todays-fastest-cars-shut-down-the-60s-70s-muscle-cars/361293/31 "2006-07-03T18:09:15Z")
[QUOTE=Rick] Dude, the traction controls on my car update and recalculate every 7 milliseconds. No way in hell you can out drive the computer. Sorry, but it is true, HAL can out drive you. 😃 [/QUOTE] **Rick** Sad but true. I just visited Sab Diego where a guy took me for a ride in his Mazfa RX8. While not a super-fast car, the thing had that traction control and he could go through curves at speeds I flatly wouldn’t have believed if I hadn’t have been there. Not only did it not slide, it didn’t even _squeak_. The traction control DOES make a weird “bumping” noise when it kicks in though. **Carmac** > [@](#): > > I hear you, but at least the old muscle cars _sounded_ like muscle cars. A lot of the late Japanese imports sound like hell when the turbocharger kicks on and off–some kind of popping sound. That said, the new Mustangs sound great… A friend describes the sound of the old cars as a “testosterone rumble.” 😛 Regards Testy ---
**Author:** ![Capa84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8edcca/32.png) [@Capa84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capa84)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscle-car-shootout-would-todays-fastest-cars-shut-down-the-60s-70s-muscle-cars/361293/32 "2006-07-03T18:23:43Z")
[QUOTE=WonJohnSoup] Most people wouldn’t really consider most any of these new generation Japanese speedsters to be “muscle cars.” Most of the import enthusiasts nowadays might even get a little offended being associated with the idea. And that “pop” from turbo might be a blow-off valve the driver installed. I knew a guy who had one installed into his WRX, mostly to make people jump in the parking lots :rolleyes: . Usually the girls would just go “your car sounds broken,” everytime he shifted, haha. It sounds more like a “pssshhht!!!” though, so we might be talking about two different things. [/QUOTE] I’d consider the 90s Japanese sports cars at GT cars, not muscle cars. The RX7, 300Z, 3000GT, and Supra all fit in that mold. The Supra was a definitely a detuned GT car, which puts out 330HP stock, and with minor mods dynos at over 420 at the wheels(cost around $1800). The stock internals and manual transmission will easily hold 800HP with no modifications. Add the ability to corner at almost 1g(.98) stock, and the fact that it could outbreak a Viper RT10, Vette ZR1, and 911 Turbo and I would agree that it’s not strictly a muscle car. The blow off valve is to release pressure in the turbine…as you accelerate, the turbo spins up and at a certain point releases the air back into the engine. As you shift, pressure remains in the turbocharger itself. When the turbo tries to spin again, it now must spin the blades against the remaining built up pressure…the blow off valve just simply releases that pressure, so when the fan tries to spin up again, it does so more quickly. The air releasing from the valve makes the sound you hear…some of them “pop”, some sound like flatulence, and some sound kind of like releasing air from a balloon with the neck pinched. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscle-car-shootout-would-todays-fastest-cars-shut-down-the-60s-70s-muscle-cars/361293/33 "2006-07-03T19:24:46Z")
Just for fun, I went back to the muscle car list in the OP, and looked at how some of today’s cars would stack up. Here’s a list of new cars, and where they would fit in the muscle car list: ```auto Car Muscle Car Rank 1/4 mile time ----------------------------------------------------------------- Corvette Z06 #1 11.5s Dodge Viper SRT10 #1 11.78s Mercedes CL55 AMG #2 12.38s Audi RS6 #2 12.63 Ford Mustang GT500 #2 12.7 Cadillac XLR-V #4 13.0 Subaru WRX Sti #4 13.0 Mitsubishi Lancer EvoRS #4 13.1 Cadillac CTS-V #4 13.1 Dodge Magnum SRT8 #4 13.1 Acura NSX #7 13.18 Dodge Ram SRT-10 #7 13.19 Chrysler 300C SRT8 #7 13.2 Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8 #7 13.2 Pontiac GTO #7 13.3 Chrysler Crossfire SRT6 #7 13.3 ``` So there’s a whole bunch of modern cars that would fit into the top-10 all time muscle cars. I didn’t include any of the exotics, and I’m pretty sure there are a bunch missing - the list I was using was just a compendium of road test times from various car magazines, so lots of vehicles missed the list - like the Charger SRT8 for example. Note that the list includes a bleemin SUV and a giant station wagon. Here’s how cheaper, average cars would stack up on the list of muscle cars: ```auto Car Muscle Car Rank 1/4 mile time ----------------------------------------------------------------- Nissan 350Z #29 13.77 Subaru Forester 2.5XT #32 13.8 Dodge Neon SRT-4 #43 13.89 Mazdaspeed 6 #50 14.0 ``` Note that a Subaru Forester, a small SUV, goes as fast as a 1967 Corvette 427. Just slightly above these times you run into dozens of every day vehicles, like the Infiniti G35, Honda Accord, Pontiac Grand Prix GXP, Inifniti Q45, Subaru WRX, All of the GM ‘SS’ vehicles like the Impala SS, etc. They all run the 1/4 mile in under 15 seconds, and most of your typical muscle cars from the 60’s were 14 to 15 second cars. The ones on the top 10 list were the rarest of the rare, limited production vehicles. For example, the '67 Camaro SS-350, a common muscle car of the time, ran the 1/4 mile in 15.4 seconds. A Nissan Altima will spank it. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscle-car-shootout-would-todays-fastest-cars-shut-down-the-60s-70s-muscle-cars/361293/34 "2006-07-03T21:03:29Z")
I don’t know much about cars. How does this one stack up? 1997 McLaren F1 Road Car Top Speed 240 mph 0 - 60 mph 3.2 Seconds 0 - quarter mile 11.6 Seconds 0 - 100 mph 7.7 Seconds > **[Supercar & Sports Car Pictures (Ultimate Hub)](https://www.supercars.net/blog/supercar-pictures-videos/gallery-home/)** > > An awesome collection of epic supercar pictures and galleries. Enjoy the beauty, aggression and outright strinking nature of the best cars on the planet. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscle-car-shootout-would-todays-fastest-cars-shut-down-the-60s-70s-muscle-cars/361293/35 "2006-07-03T21:53:48Z")
If you want to start including exotics like the McLaren F1, here’s your winner: 2006 [Bugatti Veyron](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Veyron_16.4): 0-60 - 2.5s 0-100 mph: 5.5s 0-200 mph: 22s Top Speed: 253 mph 1/4 mile time: 10.8s @ 140 mph The Bugatti’s 0-200 mph time is faster than the McLaren’s time from 120-200 mph! ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscle-car-shootout-would-todays-fastest-cars-shut-down-the-60s-70s-muscle-cars/361293/36 "2006-07-04T01:19:27Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] If you want to start including exotics like the McLaren F1, here’s your winner: 2006 [Bugatti Veyron](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Veyron_16.4): 0-60 - 2.5s 0-100 mph: 5.5s 0-200 mph: 22s Top Speed: 253 mph 1/4 mile time: 10.8s @ 140 mph The Bugatti’s 0-200 mph time is faster than the McLaren’s time from 120-200 mph! [/QUOTE] Well I did say I didn’t know much about cars. Since the Mclaren has the words ‘road car’ in its title, I popped it in. And I would expect improvements over 9 years! ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscle-car-shootout-would-todays-fastest-cars-shut-down-the-60s-70s-muscle-cars/361293/37 "2006-07-04T01:31:22Z")
The Bugatti is just stupid fast, that’s all. It costs over a million bucks, and has 1001 horsepower. A triumph of engineering over good sense. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscle-car-shootout-would-todays-fastest-cars-shut-down-the-60s-70s-muscle-cars/361293/38 "2006-07-04T01:44:13Z")
I want one. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscle-car-shootout-would-todays-fastest-cars-shut-down-the-60s-70s-muscle-cars/361293/39 "2006-07-04T01:53:48Z")
[QUOTE=Cuckoorex] I want one. [/QUOTE] I want two, and I want to pilot them with remotes, and make them fight in an arena. Maybe with some of those cool accessories from one of the fighting robot shows!!! ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscle-car-shootout-would-todays-fastest-cars-shut-down-the-60s-70s-muscle-cars/361293/40 "2006-07-04T03:48:16Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Slant] I want two, and I want to pilot them with remotes, and make them fight in an arena. Maybe with some of those cool accessories from one of the fighting robot shows!!! [/QUOTE] Now that’s entertainment… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscle-car-shootout-would-todays-fastest-cars-shut-down-the-60s-70s-muscle-cars/361293.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscle-car-shootout-would-todays-fastest-cars-shut-down-the-60s-70s-muscle-cars/361293.md?page=3)