# Muscles to smile/frown **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 26, 2000, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscles-to-smile-frown/11378 "2000-04-26T21:28:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![maralinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@maralinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maralinn)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscles-to-smile-frown/11378/1 "2000-04-26T21:28:00Z")
The Stumpers mailing list came up with a pretty decent source for the old saw about how it takes X amount of muscles to smile vs. more muscles to frown. (They cite the Science and Technology Desk Reference.) However, I’m still skeptical. For one thing, S&TDR is citing a couple of pretty dicey sources itself. Second, there has to be _some_ generalizing involved, since some frowns and smiles are slight and some are intense, and also since some people have mouths that naturally turn down. I think Cecil should call some real anatomists on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Sycorax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@Sycorax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sycorax)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscles-to-smile-frown/11378/2 "2000-04-26T23:41:00Z")
I don’t know the source to which you’re referring, but I’ve always been skeptical about the “more muscles to frown” thing too. Sitting here smiling and then frowning, I just cannot see how it could take more muscles to frown. But as you note, there are degrees of smiling & frowning – a slight turn-up of the corners of the mouth could be considered a smile and seems to involve few muscles, whereas a big, toothy grin involves the eyes, forehead, cheeks and neck. So yeah, let’s have some specificity! ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2000, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscles-to-smile-frown/11378/3 "2000-04-27T02:36:00Z")
A blank expression uses the least muscles - none. Didn’t somebody around here have a sig that went like “It takes 37 muscles to frown, but it only takes 4 to raise my arm and whack you on the head”? LOL! * * * …this is another Moebius sig…b!s sn!qaoW jay+oue s! s!y+… (adaptation of a _WallyM7Sig™_ a la quadell) For business reasons, I must preserve the outward signs of sanity. - Mark Twain ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2000, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscles-to-smile-frown/11378/4 "2000-04-27T02:53:00Z")
I agree. I’ve noticed that a blank expression will often resemble a frown - especially if tired. Okay, I’m sitting here making faces in a mirror. If I make a fake smile (a.k.a. big smile but without emotion), I see 4 muscles (it could be groups, but looks like 4 distinct “pulls”): one in each cheek pulling the mouth up, and one at the outside of the eyes pulling the eyebrows down, forming “laugh lines”. Now for frowning. First, define it. “Frowning” isn’t just pointing your lip corners down in an inverted U. A real frown is more of a mean look. This is perhaps what is meant by the proposition. A real frown employs scrunching the eyebrows with what feels like 4 “pulls”. Lips remaining neutral, that works pretty well and is a convincing frown. It can be accentuated with a slight pull down at the corner of each lip, 2 more pulls. Okay, that’s _my_ count for a basic, non-emotive smile and frown. 4:6. Of course someone with a human skull they can peel the skin back on and take a look could give a better answer, but I don’t really want Jeffrey Dahmer posting here. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2000, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscles-to-smile-frown/11378/5 "2000-04-28T21:57:00Z")
I refuse to let this question go unanswered. I’ve heard this load of tripe about it taking more muscles to frown than smile countless times in my life and it bothered me everytime. It wasn’t bothersome enough for me to actually look up the answer, but it was bothersome enough for me to post to this thread to keep it near the top of GQ. (How’s that for dedication to the search for the truth?) Someone who knows something please post to this thread. * * * Am I supposed to believe that all this rain was suspended in mid-air until moments ago? ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscles-to-smile-frown/11378/6 "2000-05-02T16:18:02Z")
Dr. Turbo: Clear! ::Applies paddles to thread. {ZAPPITY ZAP}:: Nurse Stephanie: Nothing Doctor. Dr. Turbo: Turn it up to 200, hell make that 220. Clear! ::Applies paddles to thread. {ZAPPITY ZAP}:: Nurse Stephanie: We’ve got a pulse. You’ve saved the thread. Dr. Turbo: Yes, but for how long? ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muscles-to-smile-frown/11378/7 "2000-05-02T21:35:14Z")
[USA Today](http://cgi.usatoday.com/snapshot/life/ups1.htm) says smiling takes 17 muscles, frowning coincidentally takes _exactly_ twice as many, 34. They give as their reference, “Impulse Research for Oscar Mayer.” [Impulse Research](http://www.cyberpulse.com/impulse.html) appears to be a public relations firm. It is certainly not a medical research firm. A more exhaustive discussion is found at [Nurse Minerva](http://www.nurseminerva.co.uk/muscular.htm#q1). > [@](#): > > Five pairs of facial muscles have a particular role in laughing and smiling. . . . However, it is likely that most of the 53 named facial muscles play at least some part in these expressions, particularly when the expression is exaggerated, and other groups of muscles such as the muscles of mastication and respiration. The neck muscles will also be involved. So it is rather arbitrary to emphasise just 5 pairs of laughing/smiling muscles. Furthermore, there are some facial muscles that have a complicated arrangement, and not everyone agrees on whether they should be labelled collectively or individually. Also, there are some muscles that are present only in some people (eg: transversus nuchae, malaris), which further complicates the answer to this question. > . . . > We usually say that frowning requires more muscles than laughing. That is probably correct if we are comparing like with like, say a slight smile with a slight frown, or a medium laugh with a medium frown. > However, we should be careful about several things here. Firstly, when we say ‘more muscles’, do we mean a greater number of muscles, or a greater amount of muscle? The muscles of facial expression differ in size and bulk, so that could influence the answer. We also have to remember that the naming of muscles can be somewhat arbitrary, and sometimes for historical reasons tiny bundles of muscle fibres have been given their own name while other bundles are considered to be part of a larger set which is named collectively. Secondly, as noted in our previous answer (see above) about the muscles used in laughing and smiling, it is likely that most of the 53 named facial muscles play at least some part in all these expressions, particularly when the expression is exaggerated - not to mention other groups of muscles such as the muscles of mastication and respiration. Thirdly, when we laugh happily we often generate quite a bit of noise, and this reflects muscular activity in the larynx, chest and abdomen. On the other hand frowning tends to be a relatively quiet affair, so it could be that a big laugh requires more muscles than a big frown.