# Musial and Mays **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 15, 2009, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103 "2009-07-15T13:05:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/181 "2011-08-02T22:59:18Z")
> [@Southern\_Yankee](#): > > By the way, you’ve acknowledged exaggeration, but comparing their defensive skills to a 3rd grader vs. a HS valedictorian doesn’t support your argument that you’ve been unfairly criticized for your portrayal of Musial’s D. 😉 I’ll stand by that analogy, as addressing the clarity of the differences in their defensive skills: not a close issue, not deserving of serious discussion. Offensively, they have different skills, but in the most important cumulative area of the 12 stats, OPS+, Musial’s edge is miniscule, .003 points. Not much of an argument for Musial’s superiority there. ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/182 "2011-08-02T23:05:46Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Offensively, they have different skills, but in the most important cumulative area of the 12 stats, OPS+, Musial’s edge is miniscule, .003 points. Not much of an argument for Musial’s superiority there. Can you look at those stats and claim Mays was superior, offensively? All I said was Musial had an edge on offense and Mays was clearly better on D. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/183 "2011-08-02T23:16:19Z")
Musial holds a .003 edge on offense, which is no edge at all, and Mays is night-and-day better on defense. No-brainer decision: Mays ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/184 "2011-08-02T23:48:40Z")
> [@Southern\_Yankee](#): > > I think it’s universally agreed in this thread that Mays was the better fielder. Seems to me we have at least one person in this thread who thinks Musial was as valuable defensively as Mays because he could play 1B and LF well.. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Noble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@Charlie\_Noble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Noble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/185 "2011-08-03T02:42:29Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > That’s what was being done with Musial throughout his career, though. He was above average AT THOSE POSITIONS, but if he had been capable of playing a more challenging position (or positions) he’d have been shuttled between them. If he was a world-class RFer, for example (that was the most demanding position a lefthanded thrower can play) he would have played mostly there–but his arm was too weak for a career in RF, so he mainly played left and 1B, where you don’t need to throw as well. This is hardly a recommendation for his fielding. During Terry Moore’s last year (1948) Musial started 40% of the games spelling Moore in CF and registering a .987 FPC in center. (That was an MVP season for Musial leading the ML in 8 hitting categories and the NL in 3 more.) The rest of 1948 was split between LF and RF. In 1949 Musial split time between just two positions, RF (51%) and CF (49%) recording an FPC of .993 and .990 respectively. Musial played on 3 WS championship teams and his regular season starting position was listed at a different position for each of the three teams: RF, LF, 1B. These things would all make for good recommendations. > [@](#): > > All you’ve asserted to my satisfaction, IOW, is that he was better than the average ML LFer and 1Bman, which is a fairly weak recommendation–and NOTHING compared to multiple Gold Glover in CF. This is a bullshit argument, and I feel degraded for engaging in it. But why wouldn’t Cardinal management have played Musial at just one position (say 1B) where he was more than adequate…probably Gold Glove in given years? What would cause the Cards to shift him around like a utility fielder at all those low demand positions that only a left-thrower can play? What didn’t they know 60 years ago that you know about today…and make you feel so degraded to theorize about? ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Noble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@Charlie\_Noble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Noble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/186 "2011-08-03T02:45:03Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > Seems to me we have at least one person in this thread who thinks Musial was as valuable defensively as Mays because he could play 1B and LF well.. Yes, but a total of 4 defensive positions. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Noble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@Charlie\_Noble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Noble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/187 "2011-08-03T02:51:09Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Musial holds a .003 edge on offense, which is no edge at all, and Mays is night-and-day better on defense. No-brainer decision: Mays Musial’s composite ranking for Major League Baseball’s 13 hitting categories is 12th. Mays ranks 30th. There’s more, but that’s all you need to know. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/188 "2011-08-03T02:57:44Z")
> [@Charlie\_Noble](#): > > There’s more, but that’s all you need to know. Bullshit. This is head in the sand type stuff - there’s plenty more to know, much of which has already been brought up in this thread. Specifically, league averages at the time, as well as park factors - all of which OPS+ takes into account. Looking at the numbers in a vacuum, I’d absolutely take Musial’s bat. But vacuums suck. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Noble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@Charlie\_Noble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Noble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/189 "2011-08-03T03:07:01Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Musial holds a .003 edge on offense, which is no edge at all, and Mays is night-and-day better on defense. No-brainer decision: Mays Oh, defense: Musial has a FCP .008 higher that Mays overall on defense; at Mays’s CF position Musial has a .006 higher FCP than Mays. Edge to Musial on defense too. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/190 "2011-08-03T03:09:53Z")
> [@Charlie\_Noble](#): > > Oh, defense: Musial has a FCP .008 higher that Mays overall on defense; at Mays’s CF position Musial has a .006 higher FCP than Mays. Edge to Musial on defense too. Even more bullshit. Fielding percentage is an absolutely horrendous measurement, even if you’re comparing against the same position. But to compare a CF to a (primarily) 1B is absolutely absurd. As has been pointed out in this thread. If you’re going to stick your fingers in your ears, could you at least not keep rehashing the same crap? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/191 "2011-08-03T03:26:57Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > I have been consistently affirming Musial’s defensive ability and been accused of arguing that Musial’s defense sucked. Not so consistently. > [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > but in part Musial was “able” to do this by dint of being an average fielder. (If he were a superior outfielder, he would have played much more centerfield than he did.) > [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > How can he have been the best outfielder in history (which he would have to be to be better than Mays), or even the best outfielder in the league, when he wasn’t even the best outfielder on his own team? > [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > I admire Stan Musial as a man and a ballplayer almost more than anyone I could name, despite his limitations as a ball player (fielding limitations, mostly, and less than spectacular footspeed). After your first three posts you softened your criticism of Musial’s fielding. > [@](#): > > Could you outline the argument, strongest point first, for Musial’s superiority as an offensive player? Offensively, Musial was superior to Mays in just about every category except for home runs and stolen bases. So what it comes down to for Mays’ superiority on offense is power and speed. That makes Mays a more _exciting_ player. But does it make him and all-around _superior_ offensive player? Unless you believe that Fred McGriff, with the same number of stolen bases as Musial but more home runs, was better offensively then it’s a debatable point. Mays’ defensive skills may give him the overall edge, but it’s hardly a “no-brainer decision.” ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Noble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@Charlie\_Noble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Noble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/192 "2011-08-03T03:33:27Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Bullshit. This is head in the sand type stuff - there’s plenty more to know, much of which has already been brought up in this thread. Specifically, league averages at the time, as well as park factors - all of which OPS+ takes into account. Looking at the numbers in a vacuum, I’d absolutely take Musial’s bat. But vacuums suck. Why just “park factors” and league averages? What about a 2-6 hour air conditioned plane travel vs. a 6-14 hour Pullman car factor? Why not a factor for better training, conditioning and sports injury treatment and rehab over the years?. Let’s get all the factors involved or forget about the half-ass concepts. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/193 "2011-08-03T03:34:42Z")
> [@Charlie\_Noble](#): > > Why just “park factors” and league averages? What about a 2-6 hour air conditioned plane travel vs. a 6-14 hour Pullman car factor? Why not a factor for better training, conditioning and sports injury treatment and rehab over the years?. Let’s get all the factors involved or forget about the half-ass concepts. I didn’t say anything about “just” park factors and league averages, but thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Noble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@Charlie\_Noble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Noble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/194 "2011-08-03T03:52:40Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Even more bullshit. Fielding percentage is an absolutely horrendous measurement, even if you’re comparing against the same position. But to compare a CF to a (primarily) 1B is absolutely absurd. As has been pointed out in this thread. If you’re going to stick your fingers in your ears, could you at least not keep rehashing the same crap? I only raised the FCP stat since the Musial - Mays offensive difference had been reduced to just one measurement: OPS+. Besides, FPC is one of the few recorded defensive measurements kept so it deserves consideration. (BTW: What’s with the resorting to terminology like bullshit, crap, absolutely absurd, etc. on this thread? Maybe it strenghten your argument? Maybe it’s the best argument you’ve got?) ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Noble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@Charlie\_Noble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Noble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/195 "2011-08-03T03:55:53Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > I didn’t say anything about “just” park factors and league averages, but thanks. “Specifically league averages and park factors”. But why not all factors, not just a few? ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/196 "2011-08-03T04:00:36Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Mays’ defensive skills may give him the overall edge, but it’s hardly a “no-brainer decision.” Yeah, it is. What you’re failing to see is the context: in some contexts (all starting MLB 1Bmen or LFers) Musial is way above average, but if we’re speaking of all MLB players, his defense sinks to below average, since even a good-fielding 1B man has far less defensive value than a poor fielding MLB SS, who can field circles around 90% of 1Bmen. But do go on trying to make fun of me. I find it amusing, if slightly desperate. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Noble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@Charlie\_Noble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Noble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/197 "2011-08-03T04:05:11Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Unless you’re Willie Mays, right? Well Mays didn’t move around (er, except 1B) so we’ll never be able to guage Mays in that respect. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Noble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@Charlie\_Noble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Noble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/198 "2011-08-03T04:17:03Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Yeah, it is. > > What you’re failing to see is the context: in some contexts (all starting MLB > 1Bmen or LFers) Musial is way above average, but if we’re speaking of all MLB players, his defense sinks to below average, since even a good-fielding 1B man has far less defensive value than a poor fielding MLB SS, who can field circles around 90% of 1Bmen. > > But do go on trying to make fun of me. I find it amusing, if slightly desperate. From my standpoint (post #151) I’ve not tried to elevate Musial above Mays as a fielder, but rather, make the case that Musial’s defensive versatility made his value to the team just as important as Mays. For some reason you are hung up on defending Mays fielding skills one on one against Musial. Not! ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/199 "2011-08-03T04:17:47Z")
> [@Charlie\_Noble](#): > > “Specifically league averages and park factors”. But why not all factors, not just a few? Pretend I said “to start with”. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/200 "2011-08-03T04:19:30Z")
> [@Charlie\_Noble](#): > > make the case that Musial’s defensive versatility made his value to the team just as important as Mays. You’ve barely made a case that such versatility - no matter to what degree - is of significant value. You’ve not yet begun to tell how exactly you intend to quantify that value. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103.md?page=11)