# Musial and Mays **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 15, 2009, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103 "2009-07-15T13:05:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/281 "2011-08-22T15:06:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Why would they have done all that? to prove Charlie’s point, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Noble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@Charlie\_Noble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Noble)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/282 "2011-08-22T16:14:59Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > I honestly have no idea why you would say “this site would not allow the full url address to print” when it’s clear you made no attempt at all to try. And yes - honestly, that does undermine your points in this thread, as it shows an unwillingness to put forth a modicum of effort. Why should we believe you’re making an effort to understand our points when you refuse to hit Ctrl+V to post a simple link (and make up contrived excuses for not doing so)? If you’d instead said “I don’t know how to make a link”, I’d give you the benefit of the doubt - because at least that would have been honest. I spent about 60 minutes putting in the full url over and over and everytime I reviwed the post the url I had typed in was shorted (abbreviated) and would not take me to the site. “I don’t know how to make a link.” Feel any better? This would be a pretty stupid thing for me to be dishonest about because there would be no point. Why don’t you go back to my post #265 where I had to straighten you out on all the misconceptions that you were assuming. (That must be what’s bugging you.) It didn’t occur for me to read anything sinister into your misguided comments, try to discredit you or question your motives. Get back on subject and say something about Mays or Musial. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Noble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@Charlie\_Noble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Noble)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/283 "2011-08-22T16:19:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Why would they have done all that? To put the best team on the field and WIN? But let Yookeroo respond…he’s the one that raised the point. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/284 "2011-08-22T16:24:10Z")
> [@Charlie\_Noble](#): > > (In response to your post #269) > I considered the premise of your opening sentence to be wrong because I’m not trying to prove Musial’s “bat in terms of his defense”, but rather, that Musial’s defensive versatility made his teammate’s bats more relevant. OK, and what I’m saying is that that is not, as it turned out, true, and we can prove it. Musial’s versatility is relevant to the extent that Musial afforded a team an option that a team with Mays would not have had - agreed? In other words, in comparing the two, Musial makes his teammates more relevant than Mays does _if_ Musial allows his team to field a lineup that Mays would not be able to? > [@](#): > > - I’ll concede that under your hypothetical “trapping” of Musial at just one position with Mays becoming a multi-position player (if he had so chosen) that Mays would have been more valuable. > But it just didn’t work out that way. Mays stayed at CF and Musial moved around. This isn’t what I said. I’m comparing them in hypothetical identical circumstances, not trapping Musial and moving Mays around. I’m saying that on the exact same team, with the exact same players, the only place where Musial’s versatility would allow for a better defensive lineup on any given day is at first base. At all other positions, Mays can do what Musial did in Musial’s place, _or better_. So unless you absolutely need somebody to play first, you’re better off in the field with Mays than with Musial. And I’m saying I don’t think there’s any instance where Mays is in the way of a superior bat than the one that you want to get out of the lineup, because he isn’t playing the positions that big bats play. Musial did, so Musial had to move. This means that with Mays, there’s no reason you should ever _need_ him to play first, so even that advantage for Musial is, in the real world, much less profound, I think. I don’t believe that you can come up with an actual real-life example where Musial created an opportunity that a team with Mays would not have had. If Musial’s in the outfield, Mays could do that too. If Musial’s at first, I’ll stake my team’s success on the fact that Mays in the outfield, and somebody else at first is a better defensive team. That’s the bet the Giants made every year, which is why Mays never wasted his time and his talent at first base. > [@](#): > > To put his versatility into prespective, consider that Musial is the only 3 time+ MVP winner to receive the award while playing a different fielding postion each time: > > (snipped by JC) > > (It wouldn’t be unreasonable to conclude that in 1948 Musial became the only “utility player” to have ever won an MVP award.) Musial was awesome. He was obviously a rare athlete, and a monster at the plate. Nobody disputes that. And the Cardinals were weird. That isn’t what utility player means, and really he was just an outfielder that year, which Mays would have just played center, but that’s not Musial’s fault. His stat lines are a joy to behold. > [@](#): > > Unless SS Pegan went on the DL (and assuming Mays was as capable at SS as Robin Yount, SS, CF) then Mays could go to SS, Alou to CF, Cepeda to RF and McCovey permanently to 1B. Matter-of-fact, that might (if only) have been a stronger line-up day to day for the Giants and once Pegan got healthy he or Mays could move over to 2B which would keep Cepeda and McCovey in the line-up and maybe the Giants could have traded Hiller to the Cards, kept Cepeda and went to 3 or 4 WS in the 1960’s…instead of the Cardinals. Two things I want to point out about this. One is that Mays’ “inability” to play shortstop doesn’t change anything compared to Musial, because Musial didn’t either. Musial doesn’t get credit for infinite position ability because he played both right field and left. That’s a different animal. The question is, what could Musial have done that Mays didn’t, and the answer is: nothing. With Musial the Giants still have five bats for four spots, except they don’t have Willie Mays in center. So let’s not start talking about shortstops. The second thing is, talking about unfair comparisons, I erroneously called you dishonest before, and that was dumb of me. And I definitely don’t see any reason not to take you at your word about things like links and URLs. I’ve got your back there. But… Don’t you think, in a thread called “Musial and Mays,” where a long and tedious argument has unfolded about the two guys’ defensive contributions, that saying “maybe the Giants could have gone to the World Series… instead of the Cardinals” is just a little disingenuous? _Musial_’s Cardinals didn’t go to a single World Series during Mays’ career, although his teammates did the year after he retired and twice more the rest of the decade. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/285 "2011-08-22T16:30:50Z")
> [@Charlie\_Noble](#): > > To put the best team on the field and WIN? How does moving five players to different positions put the best team on the field? You might get the best bats in the lineup, but you’d probably have a shitty defense. Mays was among the best defensive centerfielders ever. The team would not have been better served by trying to convert him to a shortstop or a second baseman. That’s just daffy. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/286 "2011-08-22T21:54:38Z")
> [@Charlie\_Noble](#): > > I spent about 60 minutes putting in the full url over and over and everytime I reviwed the post the url I had typed in was shorted (abbreviated) and would not take me to the site. For future reference, just highlight the entire URL, hit CTRL+C, then go to your post, and hit CTRL+V. Posting a link shouldn’t take more than 4 seconds. > [@](#): > > Why don’t you go back to my post #265 where I had to straighten you out on all the misconceptions that you were assuming. Post #265 didn’t address any of the points I raised, and did nothing but redirect me to post #254, which is where my questions arose. Since you’re unwilling to answer those questions, I’m pretty much done continuing with my line of questioning, because you clearly have no interest in considering any viewpoint other than your own, even if to just understand it so that you can respond accurately. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/287 "2011-08-23T00:15:04Z")
> [@Charlie\_Noble](#): > > But let Yookeroo respond…he’s the one that raised the point. My point is… > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > And I’m saying I don’t think there’s any instance where Mays is in the way of a superior bat than the one that you want to get out of the lineup, because he isn’t playing the positions that big bats play. Musial did, so Musial had to move. This means that with Mays, there’s no reason you should ever _need_ him to play first, so even that advantage for Musial is, in the real world, much less profound, I think. Right. Musial played in positions where it’s easier to find strong hitters. His versatility here is nice and does have some value. But Mays played a position where it’s much harder to find big hitters. With Musial, you only have 2 of the slugger positions (RF/LF/1B) open to add offense. With Mays, you have all 3 spots open. That’s much more valuable than Musial’s versatility. Which team scores more runs (all other things being equal)? Musial with average offensive players at the other positions or Mays with average offensive players the other positions? This is why Mays is more valuable. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/288 "2011-08-23T00:21:41Z")
> [@Charlie\_Noble](#): > > Unless SS Pegan went on the DL (and assuming Mays was as capable at SS as Robin Yount, SS, CF) then Mays could go to SS, Alou to CF, Cepeda to RF and McCovey permanently to 1B. Matter-of-fact, that might (if only) have been a stronger line-up day to day for the Giants and once Pegan got healthy he or Mays could move over to 2B which would keep Cepeda and McCovey in the line-up and maybe the Giants could have traded Hiller to the Cards, kept Cepeda and went to 3 or 4 WS in the 1960’s…instead of the Cardinals. How many of those Cardinal pennat winners in the 60s had Stan Musial on them? During the years both Willie Mays and Stan Musial were in the major leagues, the Giants went to the World Series three times; the Cardinals did not win the pennant once and never came within five games of first place. Of the four pennants Musial’s teams won, three were during the talent-depleted war years. Charlie, if your position is merely “Stan Musial is the best” you’ve made your case. You’ve convinced nobody, but you don’t owe anyone convincing. Do you have anything else to present? ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Noble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@Charlie\_Noble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Noble)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/289 "2011-08-29T01:32:07Z")
[quote=“RickJay, post:288, topic:503103”] . ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Noble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@Charlie\_Noble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Noble)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/290 "2011-08-29T04:25:25Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Charlie, if your position is merely “Stan Musial is the best” you’ve made your case. You’ve convinced nobody, but you don’t owe anyone convincing. Do you have anything else to present? That’s just about it. When I first came across the _Musial and Mays_ thread it was two years old and had a total of 17 posts, mostly concerning the dimensions of old ball parks and a curiosity about Musial’s 177 career triples. I joined SD to challenge the consensus that Mays was better than Musial. Over the next 7 weeks or so the number of posts exploded to over 280…so if nothing else the discussion at long last got underway. The highlight of the debate took place recently when the Moderator refused (#262) to be bullied into making a simple internet search for a titled article that I had suggested to counter his agrument downplaying the value of “switching (fielding) positions” (#267). Unfortunately, this event tipped Munch over the edge (exchanges at #270, 274, 277 & 280) and, not unlike Captain Queeg’s use of “geometric logic”, Munch concluded that I was lying when I apologized for my inability to figure out how to hook-up a direct url link to the article for Rick. As to the _Musial and Mays_ comparison — SD members are certainly entitled to their convictions, but no amount of passion will alter the facts: Musial out-hit Mays in 11 of the 13 MLB hitting categories, produced more runs, stuck out 830 fewer times and owns more NL Offense titles (66 to 33) than Mays, etc., etc. In addition, Musial’s all-round athletic ability and fielding versatility allowed the Cardinals to play him at 4 positions, where he committed fewer career errors (142 to 156) than Mays, and Musial became the only player to ever be awarded 3 MVP’s each while playing at a different fielding postion. Where does Mays rank with the greats? Just check the career averages/ratios stats at [www.mlb.com](http://www.mlb.com) because it says it all: BA: **123rd** / OPS: **91st** / SLG:\*\* 21st\*\* / OPS: **26th**. And throw in OPS+ if you so choose ( **21st** ), Lastly, being an excellent CF, or SS, is just not that significent of a component to the success of the team (and therefore not that important individually) because “wood trumps leather, big time”. [www.highboskage.com/team-defense.shtml](http://www.highboskage.com/team-defense.shtml). My appreciation to the Moderator for hinting that I wrap-up this thing. Even though at times I felt like and unwanted intruder, I truly enjoyed the debate. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/291 "2011-08-29T22:11:06Z")
> [@Charlie\_Noble](#): > > As to the _Musial and Mays_ comparison — SD members are certainly entitled to their convictions, but no amount of passion will alter the facts: Musial out-hit Mays in 11 of the 13 MLB hitting categories Charlie, you’re certainly not going to make a lot of headway when you keep repeating silly errors of fact. Major League Baseball does not have “13 hitting categories,” it has dozens. And, to point out the obvious, you have not been presented with “passion” in defiance of facts; you have been presented with mountains of evidence and well argued positions. > [@](#): > > My appreciation to the Moderator for hinting that I wrap-up this thing. Even though at times I felt like and unwanted intruder, I truly enjoyed the debate. I am not the moderator of this thread; I am a moderator (a volunteer position) for the Straight Dope Message Board. Unless I specifically state that something is a moderator instruction, it is not moderation, but simply me acting as a member of the board. My last post was my opinion, not a moderator instruction. Moderator actions are very clearly labelled as such. Moderators on the SDMB do not exist to direct discussion, except that we will move threads from forum to forum if they are misplaced (e.g. if someone started this thread in General Questions, it would be moved to The Game Room.) Our job is to maintain the rules of the board, which for the most part amounts to preventing abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/292 "2011-08-29T22:19:11Z")
**RickJay** , are you saying you’re more _valuable_ to the SDMB because you can post as a member AND a moderator? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/293 "2011-08-29T23:42:44Z")
> [@Southern\_Yankee](#): > > **RickJay** , are you saying you’re more _valuable_ to the SDMB because you can post as a member AND a moderator? I don’t ascribe a lot of value to switching positions. I think you get a lot more value out of a poster who does a difficult job really well. Someone like, say. Dolores, who posts all the Feud threads… come on, that’s a way more difficult position than Game Room mod. As of the end of the 2010 season Dolores had 77.3 career VORP (Value Over Replacement Poster) whereas I was at a respectable but fairly pedestrian 12.8. Hardly Hall-worthy. I don’t see how position switching can make up for that. ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/294 "2011-08-29T23:48:30Z")
If I were Cecil, I’d be happy that I had you providing _content_ as a poster, but still able to have you switch over to _moderate_ a forum when needed. I get your argument about Dolores’ skill at that one position, I don’t think anyone would debate that, but there’s more inherent value in being good at more than one thing. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/295 "2011-08-30T01:51:06Z")
But moderating the Game Room is easy; there’s little value above replacement. If you were talking about a GD mod, on the right side of the moderating spectrum, it might be a different story. But anyone could mod the Game Room; it gets low traffic, has three mods, and (for what reason I don’t understand) less spam. So the switching value of a GRM-RP (Game Room Mod - Regular Poster) just isn’t that great in the grand scheme of things; if they didn’t have me, almost anyone could fill in. Consider that of my career 12.8 VORP, 12.2 is pVORP, and only 0.6 is mVORP. Now, of course, I just recently became a mod, but it’s safe to say that mVORP number isn’t going anywhere unless I can branch out and starting modding some of the harder positions, like GD or IMHO. Then you’ll see me really pile up the numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Noble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@Charlie\_Noble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Noble)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/296 "2011-09-03T19:48:34Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Charlie, you’re certainly not going to make a lot of headway when you keep repeating silly errors of fact. Major League Baseball does not have “13 hitting categories,” it has dozens. It doesn’t make any difference. Major League Baseball lists a total of 28 Offensive Categories under the description of “Hitting” [www.mlb.com](http://www.mlb.com) …_Musial is best in 18, Mays is best in 3, and in the remaining 7 categories the statistics are either incomplete or there is no data at all._ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103.md?page=14)