# Musial and Mays **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 15, 2009, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103 "2009-07-15T13:05:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Noble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@Charlie\_Noble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Noble)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/161 "2011-08-02T04:06:37Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I believe there is SOME value to a guy who can play first and left and right, but gosh, it isn’t that much. If it was a really valuable skill, why don’t major league teams carry light-hitting players who can switch between first base and the corner outfield? Teams carry light-hitting utility players all the time, but not to play first and left. The Blue Jays have John McDonald, who can’t hit water falling from a boat, but he plays second, short and third. I’m sure I could find similar players on most teams. But when was the last time you heard about a team carrying a glove man who specialized in first and the corner outfield? If that skill was THAT valuable it would - as in the case of John McDonald - mean some players would be kept for that skill alone. But they never are; all light hitting utility players are either middle infielders, catchers, or in rare cases really, really exceptional outfielders. > > So is the value in Musial’s shuffling around worth the difference in defenswive skill? No, I really don’t believe so; major league teams don’t behave as if it does, truly elite glove men aren’t shuffled around, and it just doesn’t seem likely to me. It’s not worth _nothing_, but it’s not that much. Managers are always trying to match RH’ers against left pitching and vice versa. Every now and then a HOF hitter comes along that can handle pitchers from either side and ease the match-up problem. But once in a life time a HOF hitter with Gold Glove qualities that can handle 3 or 4 positions shows up…but it’s just not worth that much. Probably send him back to the minors to learn just one position. > [@](#): > > PRR’s point is that “platooning” has a specific meaning. It means to have two players share one position and either start games or not start based on the handedness of the opposing pitcher. Rance Mulliniks was a platoon player. Stan Musial was not. I know, and I qualified that the difference in Musial’s case was that he stayed in the game and went to another position instead of the bench. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/162 "2011-08-02T04:31:17Z")
> [@Charlie\_Noble](#): > > He wasn’t as versatile as most. I don’t know what you are basing this on. > [@](#): > > Aaron and Yaz played on because they could adapt. You’ve got this exactly backward. Mays continued to play the outfield until the end, and I suspect that’s because he was still a good enough outfielder that it made sense to play him there. Aaron was a DH his last two seasons and Yaz and Stargell were moved to 1B. That’s not because they were versatile, it’s because they couldn’t play the outfield anymore and their managers wanted to keep their bats in the lineup. (Aaron apparently wasn’t that great a first baseman either. He played there a bunch in '71 and '72, but in '73 and '74 he was in the outfield again, and the next two seasons he was a DH. He was great, but this does not speak to versatility. > [@](#): > > But maybe he wasn’t as great as we all think once he got out of his comfort zone. It’s not relevant what he could do outside of his comfort zone. What’s relevant is that he was one of the best centerfielders ever. The fact that he took a stab at playing first when he was 40 and wasn’t that great at it does not mean he was less of a player. > [@](#): > > He should have been able to adapt. Again, I don’t know what you’re basing this on. > [@](#): > > He had to go back to CF because it was the only position he could play…but he should have been able to play a lesser position that is much easier to play. Remind me again - why is it a bad thing that he had to stay in CF when that’s the harder position to play? > [@](#): > > But it’s been your assertion that 1B is not challenging No, I never said that. I’m saying the same thing everyone else is saying: 1B isn’t as hard as CF, that Musial’s “versatility” (being OK at a couple of positions) is not as valuable as Mays’ being an all-time great at a harder position, and that Mays’ being an unexceptional 1B when he gave it a stab at 40 does not say anything about the difficulty of playing that position, about Mays’ overall value, or his versatility. > [@](#): > > CF the best, 1B the worst…yet Mays couldn’t handle it. I think Ivan Rodriguez is one of the best catchers ever and that catcher is much tougher than first, but if you told him to start playing 1B this year, he probably wouldn’t be that good at it. He’s pushing 40, and even if the new position is less challenging than the old one, it’s still a new position and he doesn’t have much left in the tank. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/163 "2011-08-02T04:44:19Z")
> [@Charlie\_Noble](#): > > Managers are always trying to match RH’ers against left pitching and vice versa. Every now and then a HOF hitter comes along that can handle pitchers from either side and ease the match-up problem. But once in a life time a HOF hitter with Gold Glove qualities that can handle 3 or 4 positions shows up…but it’s just not worth that much. Probably send him back to the minors to learn just one position. > > I know, and I qualified that the difference in Musial’s case was that he stayed in the game and went to another position instead of the bench. Which seasons did Musial have all these in-game position switches? ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Noble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@Charlie\_Noble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Noble)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/164 "2011-08-02T04:45:09Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Mays batted into 251 double plays, Musial into 243. Mays had 338 stolen bases to Musial’s 78. Mays had more home runs, Musial more doubles, triples, RBI’s and total bases. Musial was credited with 35 sacrifice hits (not flies) while Mays was given 13. Which one was a bigger all around offensive threat? I think the answer is obvious. But here’s a formula to measure a batter’s success ratio _when the ball is not put in play_: BB + HBP + (SB - CS) -:- SO. Ratio: Musial 2.44; Mays 1.17. A few others: Aaron 1.16; DiMaggio 2.32; Hendersen 1.98; Bonds 1.97; Mantle 1.09. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Noble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@Charlie\_Noble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Noble)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/165 "2011-08-02T04:58:59Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Which seasons did Musial have all these in-game position switches? It wasn’t necessarily in-game switches. The alternating was from game to game, meaning that Musial would one day play 1B and then the next day he would be replaced at 1B but he would not set out the game but rather go to say LF. I think this happened pretty much throughout Musial’s career, but the peak period was in the late 1940’s and early 1950’s. It was during this time the Cards started selling off talent, in part because the ownership was in serious financial difficulty. Plus the Cards farm system, developed by Branch Rickey was crumbling. Read _Stan Musial, The Man’s Own Story as told to Bob Broeg._ ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/166 "2011-08-02T11:56:11Z")
Dave [Kingman](http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kingmda01.shtml), perhaps the most widely acknowledged atrocious fielder in the known universe, spent his career shuttling between the same positions Musial played, putting in a little awful fielding at 3B to boot (and I mean “to boot”), so does that versatility mean that he’s far more valuable defensively than other players who didn’t move around so much?. Changing positions, especially the relatively easy ones, signifies a player’s lack of skills defensively, not his prowess. This argument, out of the several muddled ones you keep trying out, is especially self-defeating. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/167 "2011-08-02T14:24:12Z")
“The ball fell among Dave Kingman.” - Richie Ashburn ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/168 "2011-08-02T15:51:59Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Dave [Kingman](http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kingmda01.shtml), perhaps the most widely acknowledged atrocious fielder in the known universe, spent his career shuttling between the same positions Musial played, putting in a little awful fielding at 3B to boot (and I mean “to boot”), so does that versatility mean that he’s far more valuable defensively than other players who didn’t move around so much?. Changing positions, especially the relatively easy ones, signifies a player’s lack of skills defensively, not his prowess. This argument, out of the several muddled ones you keep trying out, is especially self-defeating. It’s already been pointed out that Musial was above average defensively both in the outfield and at first base. That’s hardly the same as “hiding” a player somewhere where he’s less likely to hurt you defensively. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/169 "2011-08-02T16:47:11Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > It’s already been pointed out that Musial was above average defensively both in the outfield and at first base. That’s hardly the same as “hiding” a player somewhere where he’s less likely to hurt you defensively. That’s what was being done with Musial throughout his career, though. He was above average AT THOSE POSITIONS, but if he had been capable of playing a more challenging position (or positions) he’d have been shuttled between them. If he was a world-class RFer, for example (that was the most demanding position a lefthanded thrower can play) he would have played mostly there–but his arm was too weak for a career in RF, so he mainly played left and 1B, where you don’t need to throw as well. This is hardly a recommendation for his fielding. All you’ve asserted to my satisfaction, IOW, is that he was better than the average ML LFer and 1Bman, which is a fairly weak recommendation–and NOTHING compared to multiple Gold Glover in CF. This is a bullshit argument, and I feel degraded for engaging in it. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Noble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@Charlie\_Noble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Noble)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/170 "2011-08-02T18:57:49Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Dave [Kingman](http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kingmda01.shtml), perhaps the most widely acknowledged atrocious fielder in the known universe, spent his career shuttling between the same positions Musial played, putting in a little awful fielding at 3B to boot (and I mean “to boot”), so does that versatility mean that he’s far more valuable defensively than other players who didn’t move around so much?. Changing positions, especially the relatively easy ones, signifies a player’s lack of skills defensively, not his prowess. This argument, out of the several muddled ones you keep trying out, is especially self-defeating. As you probably know, Kingman’s fielding at every position he played was well below league average. It’s hard to be moved around and then expected to play defense well. Kingman was not a great hitter either, but he did manage to homer every 15.1 AB, which is pretty good when compared to Mays (16.5) and Aaron (16.4). They should have played Dave at just one position. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/171 "2011-08-02T19:17:10Z")
> [@Charlie\_Noble](#): > > As you probably know, Kingman’s fielding at every position he played was well below league average. It’s hard to be moved around and then expected to play defense well. Kingman was not a great hitter either, but he did manage to homer every 15.1 AB, which is pretty good when compared to Mays (16.5) and Aaron (16.4). They should have played Dave at just one position. Of course, Kingman could also not walk, hit for average, hit doubles or triples, run the bases, or for that matter be a tolerable teammate. But other than that he was pretty good, yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/172 "2011-08-02T20:10:22Z")
> [@Charlie\_Noble](#): > > It’s hard to be moved around and then expected to play defense well. Unless you’re Willie Mays, right? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/173 "2011-08-02T21:13:53Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > That’s what was being done with Musial throughout his career, though. He was above average AT THOSE POSITIONS, but if he had been capable of playing a more challenging position (or positions) he’d have been shuttled between them. If he was a world-class RFer, for example (that was the most demanding position a lefthanded thrower can play) he would have played mostly there–but his arm was too weak for a career in RF, so he mainly played left and 1B, where you don’t need to throw as well. This is hardly a recommendation for his fielding. > > All you’ve asserted to my satisfaction, IOW, is that he was better than the average ML LFer and 1Bman, which is a fairly weak recommendation–and NOTHING compared to multiple Gold Glover in CF. This is a bullshit argument, and I feel degraded for engaging in it. I again point out that left field in Sportsman’s Park was much larger than right field, and whoever played LF there needed a stronger arm and better speed than in right. But at least you’ve conceded that Musial was “better than average” defensively which is a step up from your earlier assertion that “changing positions, especially the relatively easy ones, signifies a player’s lack of skills defensively, not his prowess.” It really isn’t necessary to assert Mays’ defensive superiority by claiming that Musial couldn’t handle a glove. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/174 "2011-08-02T21:22:51Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > I again point out that left field in Sportsman’s Park was much larger than right field, and whoever played LF there needed a stronger arm and better speed than in right. > > But at least you’ve conceded that Musial was “better than average” defensively which is a step up from your earlier assertion that “changing positions, especially the relatively easy ones, signifies a player’s lack of skills defensively, not his prowess.” > > It really isn’t necessary to assert Mays’ defensive superiority by claiming that Musial couldn’t handle a glove. Not at all what I’ve claimed. Throughout this thread, if you trouble to read it, I’ve asserted Musial’s above-average fielding ability at 1B, LF, and even RF. But he was more than adequate at three least demanding fielding positions, and is in no way comparable to Mays’ excellence at a very demanding position. What you’re doing here is comparing a highly skilled (but not superlative) third-grader to a high school valedictorian and bragging about your third-grader’s skill at a variety of tasks, like reading aloud and doing simple sums and even current events, which means he is in some ways a better student than the valedictorian. It simply isn’t a viable argument, sorry to say. ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/175 "2011-08-02T21:55:01Z")
I disagree with the degree of difference you’re asserting, **PRR**. Yes, CF is more demanding, but you make it sound like LF, 1B and RF are insignificant in comparison. The gap isn’t _that_ large. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/176 "2011-08-02T22:00:18Z")
No, of course I’m exaggerating the degree of difference, but the difference is very clear and very significant between a corner outfielder and a CFer, and further between a 1Bman and a CFer. You would never ever trade your CFer for a LF-RF-1b and expect that he could just play CF. ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/177 "2011-08-02T22:08:19Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > No, of course I’m exaggerating the degree of difference, but the difference is very clear and very significant between a corner outfielder and a CFer, and further between a 1Bman and a CFer. You would never ever trade your CFer for a LF-RF-1b and expect that he could just play CF. Of course not. Nor would you trade your CF for a C and expect he could catch (the CF). I know the point you’re making, but in the process I think you are devaluing Musial as a fielder. I think it’s universally agreed in this thread that Mays was the better fielder. That doesn’t mean Musial wasn’t valuable at his positions. Does Mays’ defensive greatness give him an overall edge over Musial as a player? I think it does, but it doesn’t diminish Musial at all. I think Musial has an edge offensively. I always consider Mays a “top 3” all time guy, while I think Musial falls into the top 10 - 12. Extremely slim margins there. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/178 "2011-08-02T22:27:34Z")
Maybe. But I’d like to have that discussion. I have been consistently affirming Musial’s defensive ability and been accused of arguing that Musial’s defense sucked. Could you outline the argument, strongest point first, for Musial’s superiority as an offensive player? ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/179 "2011-08-02T22:42:03Z")
Sure. I’m basing it on my OP where Musial led in 9 of 12 categories. I’m sure there are other stats I didn’t include and if there are some that skew towards Mays I’m happy to see them. I didn’t cherry pick these to promote Musial, btw, I was genuinely surprised to see them. Musial/Mays OBP: .417 / .384 SLG: .559 / .557 OPS: .976 / .941 OPS+: 159 / 156 BA: .331 / .301 HR: 475 / 660 BB: 1599 / 1464 K: 696 / 1526 R: 1949 / 2062 RBI: 1951 / 1903 SB: 78 / 338 3B: 177 / 140 ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103/180 "2011-08-02T22:45:48Z")
By the way, you’ve acknowledged exaggeration, but comparing their defensive skills to a 3rd grader vs. a HS valedictorian doesn’t support your argument that you’ve been unfairly criticized for your portrayal of Musial’s D. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musial-and-mays/503103.md?page=10)