I’ll stand by that analogy, as addressing the clarity of the differences in their defensive skills: not a close issue, not deserving of serious discussion.
Offensively, they have different skills, but in the most important cumulative area of the 12 stats, OPS+, Musial’s edge is miniscule, .003 points. Not much of an argument for Musial’s superiority there.
Can you look at those stats and claim Mays was superior, offensively? All I said was Musial had an edge on offense and Mays was clearly better on D.
Musial holds a .003 edge on offense, which is no edge at all, and Mays is night-and-day better on defense. No-brainer decision: Mays
Seems to me we have at least one person in this thread who thinks Musial was as valuable defensively as Mays because he could play 1B and LF well..
During Terry Moore’s last year (1948) Musial started 40% of the games spelling Moore in CF and registering a .987 FPC in center. (That was an MVP season for Musial leading the ML in 8 hitting categories and the NL in 3 more.) The rest of 1948 was split between LF and RF. In 1949 Musial split time between just two positions, RF (51%) and CF (49%) recording an FPC of .993 and .990 respectively. Musial played on 3 WS championship teams and his regular season starting position was listed at a different position for each of the three teams: RF, LF, 1B. These things would all make for good recommendations.
But why wouldn’t Cardinal management have played Musial at just one position (say 1B) where he was more than adequate…probably Gold Glove in given years? What would cause the Cards to shift him around like a utility fielder at all those low demand positions that only a left-thrower can play? What didn’t they know 60 years ago that you know about today…and make you feel so degraded to theorize about?
Yes, but a total of 4 defensive positions.
Musial’s composite ranking for Major League Baseball’s 13 hitting categories is 12th. Mays ranks 30th. There’s more, but that’s all you need to know.
Bullshit. This is head in the sand type stuff - there’s plenty more to know, much of which has already been brought up in this thread. Specifically, league averages at the time, as well as park factors - all of which OPS+ takes into account. Looking at the numbers in a vacuum, I’d absolutely take Musial’s bat. But vacuums suck.
Oh, defense: Musial has a FCP .008 higher that Mays overall on defense; at Mays’s CF position Musial has a .006 higher FCP than Mays. Edge to Musial on defense too.
Even more bullshit. Fielding percentage is an absolutely horrendous measurement, even if you’re comparing against the same position. But to compare a CF to a (primarily) 1B is absolutely absurd. As has been pointed out in this thread. If you’re going to stick your fingers in your ears, could you at least not keep rehashing the same crap?
Not so consistently.
After your first three posts you softened your criticism of Musial’s fielding.
Offensively, Musial was superior to Mays in just about every category except for home runs and stolen bases.
So what it comes down to for Mays’ superiority on offense is power and speed. That makes Mays a more exciting player. But does it make him and all-around superior offensive player? Unless you believe that Fred McGriff, with the same number of stolen bases as Musial but more home runs, was better offensively then it’s a debatable point.
Mays’ defensive skills may give him the overall edge, but it’s hardly a “no-brainer decision.”
Why just “park factors” and league averages? What about a 2-6 hour air conditioned plane travel vs. a 6-14 hour Pullman car factor? Why not a factor for better training, conditioning and sports injury treatment and rehab over the years?. Let’s get all the factors involved or forget about the half-ass concepts.
I didn’t say anything about “just” park factors and league averages, but thanks.
I only raised the FCP stat since the Musial - Mays offensive difference had been reduced to just one measurement: OPS+. Besides, FPC is one of the few recorded defensive measurements kept so it deserves consideration. (BTW: What’s with the resorting to terminology like bullshit, crap, absolutely absurd, etc. on this thread? Maybe it strenghten your argument? Maybe it’s the best argument you’ve got?)
“Specifically league averages and park factors”. But why not all factors, not just a few?
Yeah, it is.
What you’re failing to see is the context: in some contexts (all starting MLB
1Bmen or LFers) Musial is way above average, but if we’re speaking of all MLB players, his defense sinks to below average, since even a good-fielding 1B man has far less defensive value than a poor fielding MLB SS, who can field circles around 90% of 1Bmen.
But do go on trying to make fun of me. I find it amusing, if slightly desperate.
Well Mays didn’t move around (er, except 1B) so we’ll never be able to guage Mays in that respect.
From my standpoint (post #151) I’ve not tried to elevate Musial above Mays as a fielder, but rather, make the case that Musial’s defensive versatility made his value to the team just as important as Mays. For some reason you are hung up on defending Mays fielding skills one on one against Musial. Not!
Pretend I said “to start with”. Thanks.
You’ve barely made a case that such versatility - no matter to what degree - is of significant value. You’ve not yet begun to tell how exactly you intend to quantify that value.