[quote=“Charlie_Noble, post:78, topic:503103”]
Charlie–I agree with your concluding lines: “Mays was the greatest defensive center fielder of all time. Musial was not”-- Glad you’ve finally come around to seeing the light!
[quote=“Charlie_Noble, post:78, topic:503103”]
And Musial was the greatest multi-position defensive player of all time.
In due course (job comes first) I plan to make further comments on your hypothesiaing and speculating in the remainder of this post.
Sounds like you got to personally watch Mays and Musial play in lots of games.
[quote=“pseudotriton_ruber_ruber, post:81, topic:503103”]
I’M SORRY, THAT WAS STATED BY RICKJAY. YOU SEE I’M NOT VERY GOOD CONSTRUCTING MY REPONSES TO THREADS. I GOOFED, TRIED TO DELETE THIS ENTIRE RESPONSE BUT IT APPARENTLY DIDN’T WORK. I’LL TRY AGAIN TO DELTE.
SEE MY RESPONSES TO RICK BELOW. BARE WITH ME.
Moderator -
can you delete my post #76. I inadvently posted before finishing.
the correct post is #80
thanks
sorry for screwing things up.
Charlie, to use the quote function, paste the block of text you want to quote, highlight it with your cursor, then click the button that looks like a cartoon quote bubble (it’s on the far right in the quick reply box, but to the left of the “#” in the advanced reply). Some people like to get the hang of it in a test thread in At This Message Board.
Not a problem.
When responding to a message, hit the “Quote” button under the message. It’ll automatically quote the entire message for you. All you have to do to break it up into repliable bits is use the quote tags. So to quote the bit you wrote above, I just put [/qu0te] (with a o, not a zero) after your sentence. Then you just use [qu0te] and [/qu0te] for each chunk you want to quote. Use the Preview Post button below the message window to see if you’ve got it right.
Well, I did look it up, as I noted in my previous post. I’m not sure that the distinction between “producing” and “Creating” runs is, but let’s look at the major players in analytical stats.
According to Baseball Refence, Mays created 136 wins more than a replacement player for his team with his bat, 18.5 with his glove. Musial created 121 with his bat, 7 with his glove. (It’s worth noting 7 is actually quite good.)
Fangraphs rates usial as 1002 runs better than average with the bat, Mays as 945 runs, and rated Mays as 185 runs better than average with the glove, Musial 52. Overall they rate Mays as 163 WAR, Musial 139, so evidently their methods are different from Baseball Reference but the conclusion is the same.
Win Shares: Mays 642, Musial 604.
Shamefully, Baseball Prospectus doesn’t list value for players prior to 1950.
If there is a consensus among the experts and advanced stats that Musial created more wins for his team, I cannot seem to find it.
As to the claim that Musial was the greatest multipositional defensive player of all time, maybe he was; that isn’t remotely close to the value of Willie Mays. The greatest defensive players of all time played one difficult position for almost their entire careers; Ozzie Smith, Brooks Robinson, Mays, Johnny Bench, and the like were not moved from their positions precisely because they played hard positions remarkably well. Musial was a good fielder, but the fact that he was a good fielder who played both first and the corner outfield doesn’t make him equal in value to someone who player center field magnificently. Brandon Inge is one of the greatest defensive players of all time to play two different positions for at least two full season’s worth of games; that does not make him a greater defensive player than Ozzie Smith, who does not qualify for that honor because he never played a second position that much.
By any reasonable analysis, Stan Musial was not even close to Willie Mays in defensive value.
Runs Produced: Runs + RBIs - HR, but you knew that. Runs Created; A sabermetric formula base on actual stats, and you knew that too.
That said you’ll have to excuse my irritation when it comes to dealing with stuff like WARS, WARPS, WIN, etc. Your’re able to dismiss my arguments by quoting important sounding stats that “Shamefully, Baseball Prospectus doesn’t list value for players prior to 1950”. But hey, what the hell, don’t worry about the funny-facts. Mays is better than Musial here, here and here, even though we have to make up much of Musial’s values (and some of Mays’ too) and plug into a formula that, by the way, takes 86 pages to explain. Sorry but I have a hard time buying into conclusions formulated by a subjective analysis producing player achievements that never happened on the baseball field by making use of data taken from records that were never kept.
The way I figure, if the raw numbers go the wrong way there has to be some methodology that will produce the expected outcome.
For a moment I those guys at Fangaphs were nuts, but in the end they got the outcome they expected. Whew!
Why am I not surprised?
That’s the point where the experts have to operate outside the box.
You need to look under the sub-section titled SWAG.
Truly a god playing God’s most important position.
Let’s set aside the hitting; I presented a bunch of interesting points in that regard and you ignored them, so we’ll just talk about fielding.
Do you actually believe, based not on trying to support Stan Musial’s position, but on an honest assessment of all the evidence, that Stan Musial was a more valuable fielder than Willie Mays?
And to address the issue of his left-handedness: there is no reason he couldn’t have played CF every game, as opposed to very rarely. CF is by far the most demanding of the outfield positions, yet the Cardinals inevitably decided that someone else was better for over two decades than Stan. How can he have been the best outfielder in history (which he would have to be to be better than Mays), or even the best outfielder in the league, when he wasn’t even the best outfielder on his own team?
Centerfielder covers more territory ,so running speed matters. Left and right have more critical throws. They throw to home . Right throws to 3rd, an easy spot to score from. I don’t see center as more demanding.
And on your post #84 you ignored all but one of my interesting points from my post #80 which was an item by item response to your interesting points on the first part of your post #74
First let me say this: Mays was the greatest CF of all-time and would have been better than Musial had Musial spent his career at CF. Mays was extremely valuable to the Giants by contributing approximately 2.6 outs per game, punctuated by many great catches and an unkown number of hits he cut-off to keep the runners from advancing. He could range so well that he played part of LF and RF while positoned at CF. I can’t emphasize of fall on my knees hard enough to convince you and others that I agree Mays was the greatest CF…ever!
If we are discussing this issue in the context of value to, and wins for, the team then that is a different matter. Musial’s defensive value was his versatility, not just his efforts at trying to be the best at one position. Musial was platooned as deemed necessary in order to put the best offensive/defensive combination on the field, and Musial could still produce runs and improve the defense at whatever positions he played.
Mays likely could have done this too, but he didn’t, and for good reasons. Plus his managers (or Mays) might not have deemed it necessary. (Maybe that’s a reason why Cardinal teams won more games than Gaint teams over the course of their respective careers???)
When it comes to the analytical / hypothetical grading of players (WARS. ULZ or whatever) the problem is they don’t have any way (I’ll bet) to measure the contribution to team wins by the replacement player that took over LF, RF, 1B, CF when Musial moved over to some other position. Shucks, they don’t have available the acutual defensive information from the past to accurately measure players at just one position.
I’ve never claimed Musial to be the best OF. I have said the best utility fielder / power hitter. See my comments at post #89.
Musial was probably the best overall OF on the Cardinal team during the prime of his career. Do you have someone else in mind?
Historical Note: Musial played on Cardinal teams that won three World Series. In each of the three Series, Musial’s Regular Season Starting Lineup position (according to WS records) had him listed at a different position each year: LF; RF; 1B. Versatile, huh? The year he was listed as a Right Fielder he actually started 21% of the regular season games at CF and recorded a FPC of .990. (Just thought you’d like to know.)
Mays’ managers didn’t do it because it wasn’t necessary, that’s true. But take it the logical one step further to get to the conclusion: it wasn’t necessary because Mays was the best ever at one of the most important, hardest to fill defensive positions. You don’t put a great center fielder at a different position, because by doing so you intentionally diminish his value. Left, right, and first base are the easiest defensive positions to play, and the positions where you get the least value from a fielder. Nearly everybody who can play any position can play those positions.
Mays was too good to waste at one of those low-rent positions. Musial played them well, but there’s no comparison. If you’re trying to fill a team, and you have a choice between somebody who can play spectacular defense in center on the one hand, and somebody who can play very well at left, right, or first, and OK in center field on the other, you’re a fool if you take the guy with the “versatility.” A great center fielder can play left or first if you want him to, but why would you want him to (unless you had an even better center fielder too, which was not the case with Musial’s teams)? It’s like buying five Saturns instead of one Mercedes; you only get to drive one at a time. Musial’s moving around is only as valuable as the actual value he creates at those positions; moving around is not in and of itself better than staying in one place. And as we’ve been talking about, the actual value produced between the two guys defensively just isn’t comparable. Giving Musial extra credit because somebody else played left while he moved to right makes no more sense than giving Mays credit for all of McCovey and Cepeda’s homers, because after all, by being athletic enough to play center, Mays opened up spots at the corners and at first.
And that’s where we seem to be stuck. You’re giving reasons why Musial was good, which nobody denies. They just aren’t reasons why he was better than Mays.
Which is great, but since there really aren’t very many all-time great power hitters who didn’t have a set defensive position, it doesn’t mean very much.
Musial was a fine player, and actually the more advanced defensive metrics DO rate the difference betwene Musial and replacement fielders. IT’s great that he was “versatile” in that he could play the three easiest positions on the field (in terms of versatility I am vastly more impressed by the likes of Robin Yount or Craig Biggio, who played two HARD positions) but doesn’t mean he had the same value as a true defensive great like Mays, or Mazeroski, or I-Rod. Or a guy who played outfield and pitched, too, name of George H. Ruth.
The Cardinals certainly seemed to think Enos Slaughter was better, which is why Slaughter played center.
I thought Terry Moore was in center, with Slaughter in right and Musial in left.
which is of little to no provable value.
Musial was never platoooned in his life.
.
So could Mays, the difference being he played one of the most demanding positions better than anyone else, and Musial played the three least demanding
Yes, those reasons being he was the best defensive outfielder in the business
Well, you’ll need to do more than assert that the Cardinals won more than the Giants–seems to me at face value that both teams ahd their good years and their bad, but even if the Cardsw did win a few more games, are you prepared to claim the reason was Musial’s superiority ot Mays, and nothing to do with the other players on each team?
You’re just speculating here and --surprise, surprise–you conclude in a way that supports your argument.
I’m learning nothing means very much unless the name Mays is attached.
Aside from your obvious “man-love” for Mays, what is this about alway knocking Musial…everything said about him…there is always a “however”. I’m guessing he’s a threat to your guy Willie. I understand…you’re learning things about Musial that you never heard of or paid any attention to in the past.
Slaughter was a RF for Cards…about 75% of time. The rest he played in LF. Come on Rick, add to the conversation. And no more back-handed complements for Musial.
I don’t understand what you mean. Again, I’m not a Giants or Willie Mays fan; you’re ascribing motives that do not exist to people you don’t know. If you want me to name other outfielders besides Willie Mays who were better fielders than Stan Musial, I can name ten without breaking a sweat. Devon White, Roberto Clemente, Garry Maddox… I can probably name a better defensive outfielder who played on one of more than half the franchises in the major leagues, so it isn’t a fan thing.
My concern with this sort of thing isn’t in defending a favourite player, it’s in exploring the facts.
Nobody has knocked Musial, not once in this entire thread.
My all time favourite player is Mike Schmidt. Were you to say “Mike Schmidt was a hell of a player, but he wasn’t as good as Mickey Mantle,” I wouldn’t take that as a knock against Mike Schmidt, it’s just a fact.
I’d also suggest that chellenging other people’s understanding of baseball (or any other topic) on the SDMB is not going to get you anywhere and might end up embarassing you. If you wish to discuss major league ballplayers, might I suggest you discuss major league ballplayers and the related evidence.
It’s incredible how some people can read what they want into other’s perspectives. I’ve supposedly been slamming Stan Musial? But on the list appearing above, Musial is one of only two players I have only good things to say about. I admire Stan Musial as a man and a ballplayer almost more than anyone I could name, despite his limitations as a ball player (fielding limitations, mostly, and less than spectacular footspeed), As to his superiors in the field, I would say that the majority of fulltime MLB CFers are better fielders than Musial, which is no slam on him–but if he was able to cover the ground, he would have played a lot more CF. He didn’t. End of case.
The stats overlook that Musial didn’t play much center field because he had a weak arm, not a weak glove. Remember, Musial started out as a pitcher in the minor leagues, hurt his shoulder and was converted to outfielder. He injured his shoulder again in 1957 (at the time, he was playing in his 895th consecutive game, by the way) and that was pretty much the end of his time in center field.
Or look At it this way. With a shoulder injury, Musial played all his games in 1957 and 1958, and most of them in 1959, at first base. However, by 1960 his arm was recovered enough that he returned to the outfield, and, in fact, never played first base in his final three seasons. Hardly a defensive liability.