# Music: Country & Western: What Is Western? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 12, 2004, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-country-western-what-is-western/274353 "2004-11-12T06:35:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-country-western-what-is-western/274353/1 "2004-11-12T06:35:31Z")
I think it is clear what “Country” music is – Nashville and the Grand Ol Opry and such. I know they have changed the name, and now they even have just the Country Music Awards (minus Western). But what is “Western” music in Country and Western? And does this category even exist anymore? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-country-western-what-is-western/274353/2 "2004-11-12T06:45:24Z")
I have oft wondered this too. I had presumed that ‘Western’ was cowboy music. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-country-western-what-is-western/274353/3 "2004-11-12T06:55:06Z")
Marty Robbins and Buck Owens were Western. Dwight Yokum currently is. Vince Gil could be considered kind of Western. Basically, if it’s from the Western states, or if it’s kind of twangy, it could be Western. Of course, other people will have different explanations… ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-country-western-what-is-western/274353/4 "2004-11-12T06:58:16Z")
I think country and western is just an outmoded name for the genre… I grew up a country fan and never heard it referred to C&W except by older people. Nowadays, the only time I see it referred to as such is in places like here. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-country-western-what-is-western/274353/5 "2004-11-12T07:04:44Z")
Singers like Vince Gill are also sometimes called the “High and Lonesome” sound. Yokum’s stuff is pretty lonesome, too. So, maybe the idea of cowboys on the range is an apt description. But, like Aes brought out, it’s all still called Country now. I’ve run across the term C&W recently only in very small markets, like rural panhandle Texas AM radio. The radio station hadn’t changed their promos in 30 years, I’d bet. Larger markets, like an actual city, will call all of it Country. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-country-western-what-is-western/274353/6 "2004-11-12T07:11:18Z")
I think the genre name change probably happened in the late 70s, early 80s. I still remember Houston AM stations calling it C&W when I was living there in the 70s. When I finally found KIKK/FM (Houston) in the 80s, they called it Country. And, like I said in the other post, small markets with little oro change still call it C&W as late as this Summer. But, they were also playing Patsy Kline and Mel Tillis, if that don’t tell you something… ---
**Author:** ![threeorange](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@threeorange](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threeorange)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-country-western-what-is-western/274353/7 "2004-11-12T11:14:04Z")
IIRC, “Country & Western” was a term invented in the 1940s by Billboard Magazine to replace their previous, more offensive term “hillbilly music”. Around the same time, they came up with the term “Rhythm & Blues” to replace “race music” (what is rhythm music? Don’t most musical forms have rhythm of some kind?). I don’t have time to search for a cite, so if I’m only repeating an urban (rural?) legend, please call me on it. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-country-western-what-is-western/274353/8 "2004-11-12T12:28:36Z")
> [@threeorange](#): > > IIRC, “Country & Western” was a term invented in the 1940s by Billboard Magazine to replace their previous, more offensive term “hillbilly music”. Around the same time, they came up with the term “Rhythm & Blues” to replace “race music” (what is rhythm music? Don’t most musical forms have rhythm of some kind?). > > I don’t have time to search for a cite, so if I’m only repeating an urban (rural?) legend, please call me on it. IIRC, I once heard Mary Chapin Carpenter give a similar expanation on the Letterman show, but that the term was coined by someone in promotions at a record company. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-country-western-what-is-western/274353/9 "2004-11-12T15:56:55Z")
For that matter, what is Roll music? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-country-western-what-is-western/274353/10 "2004-11-12T15:57:26Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > Singers like Vince Gill are also sometimes called the “High and Lonesome” sound. Yokum’s stuff is pretty lonesome, too. So, maybe the idea of cowboys on the range is an apt description. “High lonesome sound” is more often used to describe a tenor harmony that’s a major fourth above the melody, most common in bluegrass songs. The term comes from Bill Monroe’s song “High Lonesome Sound.” In the song, the phrase refers to the high keening of a fiddle. Whether bluegrass harmonies or the inclusion of a fiddle makes something “western” vice “country”, I am not qualified to say. ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-country-western-what-is-western/274353/11 "2004-11-12T15:59:44Z")
> [@Thudlow Boink](#): > > For that matter, what is Roll music? 😉 Polka, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-country-western-what-is-western/274353/12 "2004-11-12T16:02:24Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > I think the genre name change probably happened in the late 70s, early 80s. I still remember Houston AM stations calling it C&W when I was living there in the 70s. When I finally found KIKK/FM (Houston) in the 80s, they called it Country. Now the industry’s name for that genre is changing to Americana. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-country-western-what-is-western/274353/13 "2004-11-12T16:12:00Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Now the industry’s name for that genre is changing to Americana. That’s a horrible name. **Jurph** , that may be technically correct, but Vince has been called a high lonesome sound since he first came on to the scene. Perhaps popular usage and musicology usage of the term will just have to differ this slight bit. Either way, it’s all good as long as they don’t go to the horrible term Americana. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-country-western-what-is-western/274353/14 "2004-11-12T16:22:48Z")
[QUOTE=NoClueBoy] I think the genre name change probably happened in the late 70s, early 80s. I still remember Houston AM stations calling it C&W when I was living there in the 70s. When I finally found KIKK/FM (Houston) in the 80s, they called it Country. [QUOTE] We called it “Country” in Nashville in the 60s. My guess is that the Skillet Lickers and Bob Wills & the Texas Playboys were dissimilar enough to be considered separate genres, and the more inclusive term would emcourage stations to play both types. Sort of like “oldies” stations that play both Bob Seger and Gloria Gaynor. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-country-western-what-is-western/274353/15 "2004-11-12T16:32:20Z")
Bob Wills is technically “Texas Swing.” Just to add to the confusion. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-country-western-what-is-western/274353/16 "2004-11-12T17:31:57Z")
> [@Ukulele Ike](#): > > Bob Wills is technically “Texas Swing.” Just to add to the confusion. Yeah, but you can really hear echoes of him in George Straight and Lyle Lovett. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-country-western-what-is-western/274353/17 "2004-11-12T17:49:04Z")
“We play both kinds of music. Country and Western.” ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-country-western-what-is-western/274353/18 "2004-11-12T20:14:13Z")
Once upon a time there actually was “western” music, not to be confused with bluegrass, blues, gospel, honket-tonk, Cajun, Tex-Mex or any of the subgenres that make up “country.” Another name for it was “cowboy.” Look for a high harmony, string bass, no horns (maybe a single trumpet), a general theme of loneliness and an occasional yodel. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-country-western-what-is-western/274353/19 "2004-11-12T20:41:02Z")
If you listen to much country music from the 40s, you’ll find that a LOT of it was “Western,” singing-cowboy stuff. Just a few examples of “Western” hits of the era: “(Ghost) Riders in the Sky” “I Want to Be a Cowboy’s Sweetheart” “Cool Water” “Tumbing Tumbleweeds” “Deep in the Heart of Texas” “Singing in the Saddle” “Back in the Saddle Again” You had such cowboy acts as Gene Autry, Roy Rogers, Sons of the Pioneers, and Tex Ritter on the charts. In fact, “Western” themes were so ascendant in that era (largely due to the influence of Hollywood) that Hank Williams named his band “The Drifting Cowboys” despite the fact that he hailed from southern Alabama-- not exactly the western frontier. By the 60s the Western fad was fading fast, making the phrase “Country-Western music” something of an anachronism. ---
**Author:** ![Paisley\_Park](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Paisley\_Park](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paisley_Park)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-country-western-what-is-western/274353/20 "2004-11-12T20:47:03Z")
**Western** refers to _Western Country_. “Country” music has four distinct styles: Honky Tonk Country Western Country \* Rockabilly Country Nashville Country - > [@](#): > > Another form of the country music style is known as **western-country**. While honky-tonks were filled with its fans, theatres were filled with fans of the cowboy songs made popular, again, in Texas and Oklahoma. The often-romanticized life of the cowboy, heroic but lonely, drifting, fit in perfectly with this style of music that took its sound from the hills of Tennessee and the bayous of Louisiana. More often than not at least one part of the western song would include a lonesome whistle from the flute or other mellow-sounding wind instrument. The lyrics to the western sound centered directly on the pains and sorrows of life on the western frontier. > > Some of those famous for this western style were Gene Autry, America’s singing cowboy, and Roy Rogers, who later teamed with wife Dale Evans to become a famous due of the genre. Rogers also had been a part of The Sons of the Pioneers, a band that brought the frontier sound to over 80 westerns between 1935-1948. In the early part of the 20th century, when the term **Country & Western** came about, Honky Tonk was the _Country_, and Western (Gene Autry, Roy Rogers and the like) was, well, the _Western_ in **Country & Western**. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-country-western-what-is-western/274353.md?page=2)