# Music in triplet \*and\* "straight" time **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** music\ **Created:** [January 22, 2023, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-in-triplet-and-straight-time/978602 "2023-01-22T09:56:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2023, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-in-triplet-and-straight-time/978602/1 "2023-01-22T09:56:42Z")
First off, let me define the terms I use: Straight time is “1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and…” The beats are perfectly halved, such that each “and” is smack-dab in the middle. It sounds more rigid than triplet time. Triplet time is “1 and uh 2 and uh 3 and uh 4 and uh…” The beats are divided into thirds, so the “and” is no longer at the midway point (subdivisions of 33.3%). It sounds bouncier than straight time. Swing and shuffle rhythms are based on triplet time: “1 (and) uh 2 (and) uh 3 (and) uh 4 (and) uh…” So, here’s my post: Most popular music is one or the other, but **some well-known songs feature both**. For example, the first half of CSNY’s “Carry On” is in triplet time and the second half is in straight time: [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/nP0VBB7BO64/hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEmCOADEOgC8quKqQMa8AEB-AHUBoAC3gOKAgwIABABGH8gTCggMA8=&rs=AOn4CLCWnvAts7hy50s12UpGtSPwxVs5Ww "Crosby Stills Nash - Carry On / Questions") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP0VBB7BO64) Led Zeppelin’s “Down by the Seaside” starts in triplet time and has sections in straight time (one is at 2:08): [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/g2U1BhziqzM/maxresdefault.jpg "Down by the Seaside (1993 Remaster)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2U1BhziqzM) **Can you Dopers think of any more well-known songs like these?** Obscure instrumentals are fine, too. Whatever you want to post. Time signatures, too, but it’s not the point. As far as I’m concerned, “Penny Lane” (triplet) and “Strawberry Fields” (straight) very nearly fit the bill. Two individual songs separated by a fraction of an inch of vinyl, but I like to think they came from the same time and place. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2023, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-in-triplet-and-straight-time/978602/2 "2023-01-22T11:59:29Z")
> [@alovem](#): > > Time signatures, too, but it’s not the point. Time signatures are exactly what you are talking about. mmm ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2023, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-in-triplet-and-straight-time/978602/3 "2023-01-22T12:20:22Z")
By coincidence, I fell asleep last night analyzing in my head the Grateful Dead song “Wharf Rst,” and it’s a perfect example: A section: 4/4 time (after the intro, 24 measures, of 10 plus 10 plus 4; each ten is 4 plus 2 plus 4). The I key (major tonic), with lots of sus2 (prefiguring the ii of the C section). Repeat A section (truncate last measure, as the perspective switched from the listener to the bum). B section: 9/8 time — a slow slip jig (3 plus 3 plus 3). 8 measures, the last one very truncated. starting pianissimo. In the tonic, with lots of V C section: 4/4 time, forte (“I’ll get up and fly away”), 2 measures of intro plus 6 more — 4 plus 2 (I think the fourth ludirle is 3/4). In the ii (minor) key, Repeat A. ---
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2023, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-in-triplet-and-straight-time/978602/4 "2023-01-22T12:40:55Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Time signatures are exactly what you are talking about. Here we go. 🙄 C’mon, gimme an example. > [@JKellyMap](#): > > …the Grateful Dead song “Wharf Rst,”… That’d be “Wharf Rat,” right? I’m not hearing the combination of triplet and straight time that I’m asking about. I listened at five or six points and heard triplet time. Unusual rhythms like that are one thing and I’m asking about another. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2023, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-in-triplet-and-straight-time/978602/5 "2023-01-22T13:06:41Z")
Well, I was responding to your statement that time signatures are not the point of your OP when they are, in fact, exactly the point of your OP. Here is the example you asked for, with time signatures of 4/4, 2/4, 5/4, 3/8, 9/8, and 12/8: [Happiness Is A Warm Gun (2018 Mix) - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIR6AAjEg5U&ab_channel=TheBeatles-Topic) mmm ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2023, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-in-triplet-and-straight-time/978602/6 "2023-01-22T13:52:12Z")
This reviewer is fascinated by the time signature changes in Ozzy’s Diary Of A Madman. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/ClDhAMnE14U/maxresdefault.jpg "Ozzy and Randy Rhoads AGAIN! Vocal ANALYSIS of "Diary of a Madman" featuring Randy's wicked solos!") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClDhAMnE14U) ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2023, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-in-triplet-and-straight-time/978602/7 "2023-01-22T14:39:21Z")
> [@alovem](#): > > That’d be “Wharf Rat,” right? I’m not hearing the combination of triplet and straight time that I’m asking about. I listened at five or six points and heard triplet time. Yes, Wharf Rat. No, my analysis is correct — 4/4 in most sections (e.g., at 1:00), but triple time in the section I mentioned (the 4:00 mark is within this section). [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/l_pH-RWHLyo/hqdefault.jpg "Grateful Dead - "Wharf Rat" - Grateful Dead 'Skull & Roses' (1971)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_pH-RWHLyo) (I was wrong about that section being a 9/8 slip jig, though. It’s really a very slow 6/8 or 3/4). ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2023, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-in-triplet-and-straight-time/978602/8 "2023-01-22T14:47:59Z")
R.E.M., “Shiny Happy People” The Beatles, “We Can Work it Out” Each is mostly in four, but have triple-time instrumental breaks and/or intros/outros. ---
**Author:** ![RetroVertigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b38774/32.png) [@RetroVertigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RetroVertigo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2023, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-in-triplet-and-straight-time/978602/9 "2023-01-22T14:59:08Z")
Tool is the band that first comes mind when thinking about contemporary bands playing around with time signatures. The two examples I’d use of their songs is Rosetta Stones which changes between 4/4, 5/8, 5/4, 11/8, 3/4, and 6/4 throughout. [https://youtu.be/qnlhVVwBfew](https://youtu.be/qnlhVVwBfew) And than from a more accessible (as accessible as a 9 minute song can be) side their song Lateralus which switches from 9/8, 8/8 and 7/8 [https://youtu.be/Y7JG63IuaWs](https://youtu.be/Y7JG63IuaWs) ---
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2023, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-in-triplet-and-straight-time/978602/10 "2023-01-22T15:06:12Z")
_Money_ by Pink Floyd might be an example of what the OP is talking about. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2023, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-in-triplet-and-straight-time/978602/11 "2023-01-22T15:33:23Z")
Dammit, this is gonna bug me all day. I know there’s several relatively common songs that switch from swung meter to straight meter and back in the song, but I just can’t conjure them up. If I’m understanding you correctly, that would count, right? Song starts with a feel of 3 (triple meter) and then moves to something based on 2 (duple meter), or vice versa. You’re not looking for something that throws in the occasional bar of 3/4 in 4/4 (like “All You Need Is Love”) or something with a compound time signature like 7/8, or 7/4, Does “Mary Ann” by Buddy Guy work? Goes from a straight-8s New Orleans/Latin feel in 2 to a pretty hard swing and back: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/M1ED-Crr1Xs/maxresdefault.jpg "Mary Ann") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1ED-Crr1Xs) Found another one: Weezer’s “Keep Fishin” is in triplet/swing time the whole song except for the bridge (around 2:30) where it goes into a straight 8s feel: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/hOIsYA1QDuk/maxresdefault.jpg "Weezer - Keep Fishin' (Official Music VIdeo)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOIsYA1QDuk) ---
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2023, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-in-triplet-and-straight-time/978602/12 "2023-01-22T17:45:35Z")
Gordon Lightfoot’s “Minstrel of the Dawn” starts in a slow 6/8 and then switches to cut time (2/2) At about the 1:16 mark here: [Minstrel of the Dawn - YouTube](https://youtu.be/WgroX7H20HI) ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2023, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-in-triplet-and-straight-time/978602/13 "2023-01-22T17:58:22Z")
The second section of “Shine On You Crazy Diamond” goes back-and-forth a lot between 6/8 and 4/4. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2023, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-in-triplet-and-straight-time/978602/14 "2023-01-22T18:01:29Z")
Okay, I only know enough about music to be dangerous, having taken piano lessons about 60 years ago, studying it again briefly more than 40 years ago, and dabbling with it off and on for much of my life. But I believe I know enough to correct a few misunderstandings here. Maybe a real musician will come along to augment or correct my comments. First, the term “triplet time” is an original coining of the OP, and not a standard musical term. “Triplets” are a real thing in music, but they are NOT what the OP meant by: > [@alovem](#): > > Triplet time is “1 and uh 2 and uh 3 and uh 4 and uh…” The beats are divided into thirds, so the “and” is no longer at the midway point (subdivisions of 33.3%). [Here](https://www.liveabout.com/triplet-definition-2701825#:~:text=It's%20a%20portion%20of%20musical,beam%2C%20bracket%2C%20or%20slur.&text=Triplets%20occur%20on%20each%20quarter%2Dnote%20beat.&text=Two%20groups%20of%20triplets%20fit,measure%20of%204%2F4%20time.) is the definition of a musical triplet. > A triplet—a type of “[tuplet](https://www.liveabout.com/counting-musical-tuplets-with-audio-2701386)”—is a group of three notes played inside another note-length. It’s a portion of musical time that’s been split rhythmically into three equal parts. A triplet is identified by a small " **3"** above or below its note beam, bracket, or [slur](https://www.liveabout.com/what-is-a-slur-2455916). > > A triplet group’s total duration is equal to two of the original note-values contained within. For example, an eighth-note triplet spans two eighth-note beats (one quarter-note); a quarter-note triplet spans the length of a half-note, and so on. The page in the link gives examples of what Triplets sound like, and they are not what the OP describes as “1 and uh 2 and uh 3 and uh 4 and uh….” That _sounds_ like a 3/4 time signature\*, as others are saying, although IMHO it would more properly be counted as “one two three, one two three,” where each “one” marks the start of a new measure. Except that the first song the OP gives as an example of “triplet time” is not written in 3/4 time. It is 4/4. [![](https://d29ci68ykuu27r.cloudfront.net/items/19407680/cover_images/cover-large_file.png) ](https://d29ci68ykuu27r.cloudfront.net/items/19407680/cover_images/cover-large_file.png) Among the things that make this song sound bouncy is syncopation: the first word in each phrase is an eighth note behind the beat. The second half of the song drops that syncopation. But there is no triple beat in this song. It is 4/4 all the way through. However, the Led Zep song does have a triple beat and while it can be written in 4/4, it is probably better in 12/8 time. [![](https://d29ci68ykuu27r.cloudfront.net/items/19321961/cover_images/cover-large_file.png) ](https://d29ci68ykuu27r.cloudfront.net/items/19321961/cover_images/cover-large_file.png) (Sorry for the low-res images.) This does have the “one and uh two and uh” rhythm the OP talks about, although I would usually call it out “one-two-three-four-five-six.” Although 3/4 time is relatively rare in pop music, time signatures with even multiples of three – usually 6/8 and 12/8 – are much more common, particularly in blues songs like _House of the Rising Sun_. Other examples include the Beatles’ _Norwegian Wood,_ and Queen’s _We are the Champions._ But the OP is apparently looking for songs that switch time signatures, and other posters have given several good examples. > [@Ynnad](#): > > _Money_ by Pink Floyd might be an example of what the OP is talking about. Virtually all of it is in 7/4 (a very unusual signature), except for the guitar solo that starts at about 2:55, which is 4/4. Floyd’s _Shine On You Crazy Diamond_ also has some notable time changes, including from 6/8 to 12/8, which gives the impression of doubling the tempo, and from 6/8 to 4/4. [See here](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shine_On_You_Crazy_Diamond#Composition). Ninjaed by @Maserschmidt! * * * \*The lower number in the time signature indicates which note – half-note, quarter-note, eighth-note, etc. – is worth one beat, and the upper number is how many beats to the measure. And to anticipate any lurking pedants, yes, I know that time signatures are NOT fractions, and shouldn’t be written as such. But it’s much easier in this context to write them that way, so sue me. ---
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2023, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-in-triplet-and-straight-time/978602/15 "2023-01-22T18:52:54Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Well, I was responding to your statement that time signatures are not the point of your OP when they are, in fact, exactly the point of your OP. No, they’re not. Both examples I posted can be written in 4/4, so the time signature is not the defining characteristic. I’d rather not get into it because there are always several ways to write the same music, but feel free to talk about time signatures with others here. As I said, this thread is for anyone to say what they like. > [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Here is the example you asked for, with time signatures of 4/4, 2/4, 5/4, 3/8, 9/8, and 12/8: > > [Happiness Is A Warm Gun (2018 Mix) - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIR6AAjEg5U&ab_channel=TheBeatles-Topic) Okay, it changes from straight to triplet and back to straight, so that’s an example. @JKellyMap: Still not hearing it in Wharf Rat but very clearly in the REM and Beatles tracks. Those are two good examples of an “oom-pah-pah” section to break things up. Very commonly used in popular music. > [@Ynnad](#): > > _Money_ by Pink Floyd might be an example of what the OP is talking about. Nah, it’s triplet rhythm all the way through. Thanks for the suggestion, though. > [@pulykamell](#): > > I know there’s several relatively common songs that switch from swung meter to straight meter and back in the song, but I just can’t conjure them up. If I’m understanding you correctly, that would count, right? Sure. > [@pulykamell](#): > > You’re not looking for something that throws in the occasional bar of 3/4 in 4/4 (like “All You Need Is Love”) or something with a compound time signature like 7/8, or 7/4, Not necessarily. Like I’ve been saying, time signatures are not (necessarily) the point. > [@pulykamell](#): > > Does “Mary Ann” by Buddy Guy work? Well, I think it sort of works. The first part sounds like a polyrhythm to me: juxtaposition of two rhythms. Not sure if one of the two is straight time. The breaks (with the guitar solo, for example) are triplet time (or swing or shuffle or whatever you want to call it), but there’s a clear difference between the two sections, so _I’ll allow it_. 😀 > [@pulykamell](#): > > Weezer’s “Keep Fishin” Yeah, that’s what I’m talking about. > [@K364](#): > > Gordon Lightfoot’s “Minstrel of the Dawn” Yes, another example. @commasense: No, you don’t understand. The definition you’ve pointed out… > It’s a portion of musical time that’s been split rhythmically into three equal parts. …is the same as mine: > The beats are divided into thirds, so the “and” is no longer at the midway point (subdivisions of 33.3%). How can you not understand that “three equal parts” is the same as “subdivisions of 33.3%”? > [@commasense](#): > > Maybe a real musician will come along to augment or correct my comments. I’ve been a musician all my life, I’ve read music for over 40 years and have written it for the last 30. You don’t understand what I’m talking about. > [@commasense](#): > > That _sounds_ like a 3/4 time signature\*, No, it’d be a 4/4 beat in triplets. You’re confusing the number of beats in a measure with the feel generated by the subdivision of single beats. I think I haven’t replied to two posters; will have a look later and comment. Thanks to all for the contributions! ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2023, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-in-triplet-and-straight-time/978602/16 "2023-01-22T19:27:57Z")
This [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Oe2r6pHcSQI/maxresdefault.jpg "Sungazer - Perihelion - full album (2021)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe2r6pHcSQI) starts out in a weird time signature, if someone wants to analyse it. ---
**Author:** ![Disinfectus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/disinfectus/32/11085_2.png) [@Disinfectus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disinfectus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2023, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-in-triplet-and-straight-time/978602/17 "2023-01-22T19:28:54Z")
Lots of misinformation here. First, this has absolutely nothing to do with time signatures. Most musicians refer to them as either “straight eighths” or “swung eighths”. It is a concept essential to playing jazz. Straight eighth notes are equally spaced, but in jazz, they are not. In jazz, when you see eighth notes written, they are played as the first and third notes of a triplet. **One** and **Uh** , **Two** and **Uh** , with the middle note silent. But they are written just like straight eighth notes. You can swing eighth notes in any time signature, the most common being 4/4 and 3/4. but Brubecks “Take Five” is an example of swung eighth notes in 5/4 time. ---
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2023, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-in-triplet-and-straight-time/978602/18 "2023-01-22T19:33:27Z")
Thank you! ---
**Author:** ![Disinfectus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/disinfectus/32/11085_2.png) [@Disinfectus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disinfectus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2023, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-in-triplet-and-straight-time/978602/19 "2023-01-22T19:37:26Z")
You are welcome! I learned this concept directly from Joe Porcaro. His credentials are easy to find online. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2023, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-in-triplet-and-straight-time/978602/20 "2023-01-22T19:42:43Z")
Thanks for that clarification. Is @alovem’s first song, _Carry On_, an example of swung eighth notes? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-in-triplet-and-straight-time/978602.md?page=2)