# Music Notation Question - Dotted Half Note = Quarter Note **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** music\ **Created:** [June 7, 2022, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-notation-question-dotted-half-note-quarter-note/965797 "2022-06-07T07:27:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![yearofglad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b782af/32.png) [@yearofglad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yearofglad)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-notation-question-dotted-half-note-quarter-note/965797/1 "2022-06-07T07:27:05Z")
I downloaded and am learning a piano piece. [A snippet of it is shown here.](https://imgur.com/a/O4Lmy8s) (The site requires registration or I’d link to it directly.) At the top, it says “Andante” and then in parentheses shows a dotted half note, an equal sign, and a quarter note, which obviously means that where I see a dotted half note, it gets one beat (since the piece is in 3/4 time) instead of the 3 beats it would normally receive. And indeed, many measures contain both a dotted half note and a regular half note, which is 3 beats if I give the half note one beat. Why is it written this way, rather than just with quarter notes? Is this common? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-notation-question-dotted-half-note-quarter-note/965797/2 "2022-06-07T08:23:40Z")
In your image, the dotted half notes are always equal to 3 beats (the measures with them have 2 different voices), the equation notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-notation-question-dotted-half-note-quarter-note/965797/3 "2022-06-07T08:55:54Z")
It looks to me that the intent is that the dotted half notes are correctly running the whole bar, but the pedal notation suggests that that note can be played as a quarter note and the pedal will provide the full bar of sustain. So I suspect it is a notation intended to help with the pedal whilst maintaining playability. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-notation-question-dotted-half-note-quarter-note/965797/4 "2022-06-07T09:04:43Z")
Is this part of a longer piece? You’d normally see tempo notation like this to indicate that a note value in the current section has the same value as a note in the preceding section. For this instance, give the dotted half note in this section the same tempo as the quarter note preceding. Incidentally, you don’t need to register for Imgur. You can just link to the image directly and it will automagically show up here, like so: [![](https://i.imgur.com/bHLPEnD.jpeg) ](https://i.imgur.com/bHLPEnD.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-notation-question-dotted-half-note-quarter-note/965797/5 "2022-06-07T12:32:32Z")
Yeah, those undotted half-notes don’t follow the dotted half-note; they follow the quarter-rest. The dotted halves are sustained for the whole measure, as one would expect in 3/4 time. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-notation-question-dotted-half-note-quarter-note/965797/6 "2022-06-07T13:11:16Z")
So, to be absolutely clear, that dotted half = quarter is about the tempo, specifically the tempo relative to the last movement, and has nothing to do with how many beats per note, and nothing to do with the pedal notations. A dotted half note is three beats, as shown in the music. As others said, some measures show a quarter rest and then a half note, for three total beats. The pedal will open up the sound and make the whole piano ring out, but doesn’t affect how long to hold the notes down (although, in practice, you could release them immediately if you have the pedal down, of course). ---
**Author:** ![yearofglad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b782af/32.png) [@yearofglad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yearofglad)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-notation-question-dotted-half-note-quarter-note/965797/7 "2022-06-07T14:28:31Z")
I contacted the composer of the piece - an idea I had after posting - and he confirmed what @Francis_Vaughan and @Chronos said - the dotted half notes are intended to “last” the entire measure, and he wrote it that way to accentuate the multi-voice writing. Being somewhat of a novice at piano, and coming from a trumpet background, I didn’t consider the multi-voice aspect. His response, after going through Google Translate (from the French) is here: > Unfortunately, I’m not very good at English… especially for technical musical terms. > So I answer you in French and I hope you will understand with a translator 😉 > You have a dotted half note in your left hand to accentuate the multi-voice writing. > Indeed by putting the sustain pedal at the beginning of each measure the low note (dotted white) lasts the whole measure. > But it’s not an obligation to write… I could have written a quarter note;)… but I’m a perfectionist. This sounds like, from what the composer of the piece said, that it has nothing to do with tempo at all, unless I’m misunderstanding @Terminus_Est and @RitterSport’s first paragraph. It is NOT part of a longer piece, and has no preceding section; the snippet I posted is the beginning of the piece. @Terminus_EST: I didn’t register for imgur - I just dragged-and-dropped the image onto their website and it automatically uploads it and creates a URL for it without registration. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-notation-question-dotted-half-note-quarter-note/965797/8 "2022-06-07T14:37:51Z")
I think the composer misunderstood your question. He could have put a quarter note at the beginning of the measures that have the pedal down, is what he’s saying, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![yearofglad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b782af/32.png) [@yearofglad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yearofglad)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-notation-question-dotted-half-note-quarter-note/965797/9 "2022-06-07T14:44:49Z")
I don’t think he misunderstood my question; his answer makes sense to me in light of my question, and my question was written in quite-passable French. That is what he’s saying - he could have put a quarter note but instead chose to put a dotted half-note to accentuate that the low note on the first beat of the measure should sustain through the entire measure. I mean, that’s precisely (via a translator) what he said. I’m not sure why you think he misunderstood my question, when it seems to me he answered it precisely and echoed what other posters said. (Not trying to be argumentative; tone is easier on a piano than on a message board.) ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-notation-question-dotted-half-note-quarter-note/965797/10 "2022-06-07T14:55:53Z")
Then, I don’t understand the point of that notation. I’ve seen shuffle beat notation, where the parens indicate that a two quarter notes is the same as a half and an eighth (or something), basically telling you to play a blues shuffle in triplets, but notated as quarters. What does his notation add? If I were to play that piece on an organ, which doesn’t have a sustain pedal, would I hold the dotted half for the whole measure or play it as a quarter note? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-notation-question-dotted-half-note-quarter-note/965797/11 "2022-06-07T15:49:14Z")
Others here have already explained what the notation means, without the “dotted half = quarter” bit. That much is fairly straightforward. The puzzling part is what the “dotted half = quarter” bit means. If this is the start of the whole piece, then it can’t mean a tempo change from a previous section. Maybe it just means that the composer wants an extremely rapid tempo, such that an entire measure of this piece is only as long as a “normal” quarter note, with some implicit understanding of how long a “normal” quarter note is? EDIT: Wait, no, that’s not it, either, because “andante” means “moderately slow”, quite inconsistent with “three times normal speed”. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-notation-question-dotted-half-note-quarter-note/965797/12 "2022-06-07T15:58:53Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > What does his notation add? If I were to play that piece on an organ, which doesn’t have a sustain pedal, would I hold the dotted half for the whole measure or play it as a quarter note? Does the pedal notation matter at all? Assume it were not there. Then you would start the dotted note on beat 1 and hold it for 3 beats, while the minim chord starts on beat 2 and is sustained for 2 beats. As least, that is what the score “says”. > [@Chronos](#): > > EDIT: Wait, no, that’s not it, either, because “andante” means “moderately slow”, quite inconsistent with “three times normal speed”. > [@yearofglad](#): > > Just to confirm that your tempo idea isn’t correct (which you kind of already did), the composer has an mp3 available of them performing the piece, and it’s definitely andante. Not that there was any doubt - just extra confirmation. At the very beginning, one might expect a clear indication like “[crotchet] = 123” or whatever, not the sort of metric modulation equation that is there, no? I’ll have to look this one up in the big encyclopedia of modern musical notation to see if there are any examples corresponding to the O.P. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-notation-question-dotted-half-note-quarter-note/965797/13 "2022-06-07T15:59:21Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > If I were to play that piece on an organ, which doesn’t have a sustain pedal, would I hold the dotted half for the whole measure or play it as a quarter note? Sustain it (i.e. hold it down for the whole measure). That’s clearly the intent. The notation as given (and as the composer said) clarifies the part. There’s a bass part (the dotted halves), a harmonic accompaniment (with chords and partial chords) as the half notes, and a melody line on top. I’m fairly certain I’ve seen this type of notation before in piano sheet music, but I’m blanking on where. The rest above the G in the bass cleff in the first measure (not the pickup measure before it) clearly indicate there are two parts being written there. ---
**Author:** ![yearofglad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b782af/32.png) [@yearofglad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yearofglad)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-notation-question-dotted-half-note-quarter-note/965797/14 "2022-06-07T16:06:35Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Others here have already explained what the notation means, without the “dotted half = quarter” bit. That much is fairly straightforward. The puzzling part is what the “dotted half = quarter” bit means. If this is the start of the whole piece, then it can’t mean a tempo change from a previous section. Maybe it just means that the composer wants an extremely rapid tempo, such that an entire measure of this piece is only as long as a “normal” quarter note, with some implicit understanding of how long a “normal” quarter note is? > > EDIT: Wait, no, that’s not it, either, because “andante” means “moderately slow”, quite inconsistent with “three times normal speed”. Just to confirm that your tempo idea isn’t correct (which you kind of already did), the composer has an mp3 available of them performing the piece, and it’s definitely andante. Not that there was any doubt - just extra confirmation. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-notation-question-dotted-half-note-quarter-note/965797/15 "2022-06-07T16:09:25Z")
I think normally that bass part would be written out as a quarter note then tied to the next beat as a half note. I don’t know why it’s difficult for me to remember (oh wait, I do, I don’t really play much from anything other than a lead sheet these days). But I’m pretty sure that would be the conventional way of writing it. It’s a bit messy with all the ties though, and this is cleaner and, I think, still understandable. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-notation-question-dotted-half-note-quarter-note/965797/16 "2022-06-07T16:12:22Z")
Ah, here we go. Gymnopédie #2 employs the same type of notation: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/315XN6VPi8U/maxresdefault.jpg "Erik Satie - Gymnopédie No.1, No.2 and No.3 Sheet Music") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=315XN6VPi8U) ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-notation-question-dotted-half-note-quarter-note/965797/17 "2022-06-07T16:20:51Z")
Elaine Gould says, “Only very straightforward rhythms may be written across the beat or half-bar.” One of her examples is a quarter note followed by a dotted half-note in 4/4. > [@pulykamell](#): > > Ah, here we go. Gymnopédie #2 employs the same type of notation: I think it’s OK according to Gould 🙂 ETA she says “A long duration that starts on the beat may be written as a single note-value” in _ **simple time** _. In compound time it is only allowed for combined whole beats. Also, metres of three beats must expose at least two. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-notation-question-dotted-half-note-quarter-note/965797/18 "2022-06-07T16:25:08Z")
Bach puts rests in for multi-voice parts all the time, just like the OP’s piece has. > [@pulykamell](#): > > Sustain it (i.e. hold it down for the whole measure). That’s clearly the intent. I agree, but then what does the dotted half = quarter mean? You don’t need that in order for a dotted half to be held the whole measure in 3/4 time. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-notation-question-dotted-half-note-quarter-note/965797/19 "2022-06-07T16:30:13Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Bach puts rests in for multi-voice parts all the time, just like the OP’s piece has. Yeah, I was quickly looking through his three-part inventions with no luck, and then the rhythm of the left hand put me in mind of Satie. Yeah, I’m not sure what the marking you’re talking about adds to my interpretation of how to play the piece. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-notation-question-dotted-half-note-quarter-note/965797/20 "2022-06-07T17:27:53Z")
All of this is pretty straightforward. There are three questions here which are mostly unrelated to each other: 1. What does the dotted half = quarter notation mean next to the tempo indication? 2. What’s going on with the notation for the bass clef parts? How can there be a rest at the same time as a note? 3. What relationship do the pedal markings have with the dotted half notes? [1] This is not really true. Holding the pedal down lifts the dampers off of all of the keys, allowing all strings to move, vibrate, and make noise even if they don’t correspond to the notes being played. This can have a significant effect on the timbre of a passage. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-notation-question-dotted-half-note-quarter-note/965797.md?page=2)