# Music theory Q: What is G in the key of A major? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 9, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-theory-q-what-is-g-in-the-key-of-a-major/697969 "2014-09-09T16:13:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-theory-q-what-is-g-in-the-key-of-a-major/697969/41 "2014-09-12T07:38:10Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Listen. No one will ever be able to convince me that B# = C. B# _approaches_ C, but never actually reaches it. A sharp note can never be a natural note. I mean otherwise you would have to deal with absurdities like A##. It’s written A𝄪, or Ax. And it [very much does exist](http://www.music.vt.edu/MUSICDICTIONARY/texta/adoublesharp.html). Granted, I can’t think of when a Ax would be necessary, as double sharps usually happen for the raised sixth and seventh scale degrees. Fx will show up in G# minor, for example. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-theory-q-what-is-g-in-the-key-of-a-major/697969/42 "2014-09-12T10:15:38Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Listen. No one will ever be able to convince me that B# = C. B# _approaches_ C, but never actually reaches it. A sharp note can never be a natural note. I mean otherwise you would have to deal with absurdities like A##. Careful…now that you brought _that_ up, this thread could keep going past [two thousand posts](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=32760&page=44&highlight=.9999)… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-theory-q-what-is-g-in-the-key-of-a-major/697969/43 "2014-09-12T13:04:08Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Careful…now that you brought _that_ up, this thread could keep going past [two thousand posts](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=32760&page=44&highlight=.9999)… 😉 I’m assuming his post is being facetious and referencing that. If not, see BigT’s response. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-theory-q-what-is-g-in-the-key-of-a-major/697969/44 "2014-09-12T13:30:23Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I’m assuming his post is being facetious and referencing that. If not, see BigT’s response. Ahh, got it. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-theory-q-what-is-g-in-the-key-of-a-major/697969/45 "2014-09-12T13:58:34Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It’s written A𝄪, or Ax. And it [very much does exist](http://www.music.vt.edu/MUSICDICTIONARY/texta/adoublesharp.html). > > Granted, I can’t think of when a Ax would be necessary, as double sharps usually happen for the raised sixth and seventh scale degrees. Fx will show up in G# minor, for example. You said it yourself – so-called “double sharping” is not necessary. And in music, nothing exists that is not absolutely necessary. It’s a matter of simple logic and common sense. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-theory-q-what-is-g-in-the-key-of-a-major/697969/46 "2014-09-12T13:59:45Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Ahh, got it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-theory-q-what-is-g-in-the-key-of-a-major/697969/47 "2014-09-12T14:01:14Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It’s written A𝄪, or Ax. And it [very much does exist](http://www.music.vt.edu/MUSICDICTIONARY/texta/adoublesharp.html). > > Granted, I can’t think of when a Ax would be necessary, as double sharps usually happen for the raised sixth and seventh scale degrees. Fx will show up in G# minor, for example. I see Ax in Bach’s “Well-Tempered Clavier”, Book I, Fugue No 3 in C# minor at measure 22. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-theory-q-what-is-g-in-the-key-of-a-major/697969/48 "2014-09-12T14:19:46Z")
And stuff like double flats and double sharps make sense, if you’re used to them. Take the chord A-flat minor, for example. It can be notated as Ab, B (natural), Eb. But on the staff, that just looks _weird_ to me, because for major and minor triads, I am expecting a shape with three notes neatly stacked on top of each other (So three notes on consecutive lines, or three notes in consecutive spaces.) If you write it out as Ab, B natural, Eb, you get this weird shape that it looks like the first two notes should have an interval of a second between them. Add to that that you now have the issues of having a key with two different Bs, one flatted and one natural, it makes more sense to me and is clearer and less messy to have a B flat and a C double flat. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-theory-q-what-is-g-in-the-key-of-a-major/697969/49 "2014-09-12T14:55:07Z")
> [@Moe](#): > > Most of this music isn’t strictly tonal (or often even remotely so). What does “tonal” mean in this context? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-theory-q-what-is-g-in-the-key-of-a-major/697969/50 "2014-09-12T16:30:53Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I see Ax in Bach’s “Well-Tempered Clavier”, Book I, Fugue No 3 in C# minor at measure 22. Ack! That should be C# major. (ETA: You can actually see it [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw-0PRovMU8#t=110).) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-theory-q-what-is-g-in-the-key-of-a-major/697969/51 "2014-09-12T22:52:27Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > You said it yourself – so-called “double sharping” is not necessary. And in music, nothing exists that is not absolutely necessary. It’s a matter of simple logic and common sense. I didn’t say it was unnecessary. I said I can’t think of a place where Ax is necessary. It is very necessary in G# minor. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-theory-q-what-is-g-in-the-key-of-a-major/697969/52 "2014-09-13T00:08:42Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I didn’t say it was unnecessary. I said I can’t think of a place where Ax is necessary. It is very necessary in G# minor. And only now did I look up and see it was a whoosh. Good one **Frylock**. Totally unexpected. (Not that that confusing post above would have helped if it weren’t.) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-theory-q-what-is-g-in-the-key-of-a-major/697969/53 "2014-09-13T00:23:53Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I see Ax in Bach’s “Well-Tempered Clavier”, Book I, Fugue No 3 in C# minor at measure 22. Seeing that is one place where I would actually agree with Frylock’s mythical person. There are so many double-sharps that I would have definitely changed to a flat key. Heck, I may have even written the whole thing in Db major. Well temperament may not be the same as equal temperament, but it does mean the enharmonic notes are exactly the same. It was only before well temperament that Ax would be close to but not quite B. (I believe it would actually be slightly higher, though.) > [@pulykamell](#): > > Take the chord A-flat minor[…] it makes more sense to me and is clearer and less messy to have a B flat and a C double flat. You clearly just mean C flat here. > [@Acsenray](#): > > What does “tonal” mean in this context? It means to have a definite musical key. You know, like being in G major or Bb minor. Atonal music gets rid of any recognizable key. Check out the [Wikipedia article on tonality](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonality) for more. Or, if you have the time, listen to Vi Hart’s [video on serialism](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4niz8TfY794), which includes examples where she used an atonal system called serialism to alter popular old children’s tunes. The funny one is how normal it can sound if you make it jazz. ([Serialism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serialism), put simply, is where you are not allowed to reuse a note until you’ve used all 12. Playing the same note multiple times in succession and going back to the previous note are allowed, but that’s it.) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-theory-q-what-is-g-in-the-key-of-a-major/697969/54 "2014-09-13T00:29:17Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Take the chord A-flat minor[…] it makes more sense to me and is clearer and less messy to have a B flat and a C double flat. You clearly just mean C flat here. I think you meant to talk about G-flat minor and Bbb. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-theory-q-what-is-g-in-the-key-of-a-major/697969/55 "2014-09-13T01:02:04Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You clearly just mean C flat here. I think you meant to talk about G-flat minor and Bbb. Yeah. Um… I mean C flat. Um. Need more caffeine in my coffee. I confess I wasn’t immediately thinking of G-flat minor, but I would have eventually gotten to it to make the same point, if I had not been suffering a major brain fart. This is apparently what happens when you have a four-month old in the house: you lose half your brain cells. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-theory-q-what-is-g-in-the-key-of-a-major/697969/56 "2014-09-13T01:12:57Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It means to have a definite musical key. You know, like being in G major or Bb minor. Atonal music gets rid of any recognizable key. Sure, but the question is, I think, what does **Moe** mean when he says most rock/pop music is not strictly tonal. I mean, I have some ideas what it could mean in terms of ambiguous tonality and the such, but I’d still call most (if not all) popular music clearly tonal. I guess it all hinges on what is meant by “strictly.” ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-theory-q-what-is-g-in-the-key-of-a-major/697969/57 "2014-09-13T01:59:17Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Sure, but the question is, I think, what does **Moe** mean when he says most rock/pop music is not strictly tonal. I mean, I have some ideas what it could mean in terms of ambiguous tonality and the such, but I’d still call most (if not all) popular music clearly tonal. I guess it all hinges on what is meant by “strictly.” Maybe he was referring to blue notes, which as you know tend to bend and so spend much of their time between, say, a minor and a major third…and this is the basis for the blues, of course, and therefore much of rock, and finds its way even into hip-hop and some popular dance music. All entirely “tonal” in the sense of each song having a pretty clear (or very clear) key and pretty clear (or very clear) chords, but with some “atonality” in that some of the notes (especially when sung or played on a “lead” guitar) aren’t clearly one of the twelve semi-tones of standard Western music. (see Gerald Kubik’s book “Africa and the Blues” for where this came from…but that’s another story) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-theory-q-what-is-g-in-the-key-of-a-major/697969/58 "2014-09-13T02:09:20Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Maybe he was referring to blue notes, which as you know tend to bend and so spend much of their time between, say, a minor and a major third Yeah, that’s part of what I had in mind that could be meant. That, and also the prevalence of “power chords” which are neither major nor minor (but perfect fifths), although often there is an implied tonality. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-theory-q-what-is-g-in-the-key-of-a-major/697969/59 "2014-09-13T02:11:16Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Maybe he was referring to blue notes, which as you know tend to bend and so spend much of their time between, say, a minor and a major third Yeah, that’s part of what I had in mind that could be meant. That, and also the prevalence of “power chords” which are neither major nor minor (but perfect fifths), although often there is an implied tonality. But, yeah, if all that is meant that some notes stray outside 12 tone equal temperament, yes. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-theory-q-what-is-g-in-the-key-of-a-major/697969/60 "2014-09-13T03:08:49Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Sure, but the question is, I think, what does **Moe** mean when he says most rock/pop music is not strictly tonal. I mean, I have some ideas what it could mean in terms of ambiguous tonality and the such, but I’d still call most (if not all) popular music clearly tonal. I guess it all hinges on what is meant by “strictly.” Ah. I stupidly didn’t look back up to see the context of **Moe** ’s quote. And Acsenray sounds like he’s just learning music theory and might not know about tonality. I do agree that he’s probably defining “strictly tonal” as “staying in the same key, unambiguously.” He’d probably even count a Im7 as not “strictly tonal” because it’s technically a V7/IV. Blues notes are an intriguing possibility, too. Power chords don’t really fit, though. It’s not like the I5 chord doesn’t exist in classical (and earlier) harmony, too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-theory-q-what-is-g-in-the-key-of-a-major/697969.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/music-theory-q-what-is-g-in-the-key-of-a-major/697969.md?page=4)