Homies?
Did you say homies?
Thats the funniest thing I’ve read all day.
Homies…
Omniscient wrote
This line of argument really irks me. It’s just another diversion from the core of the matter.
I’m not even going to debate the cost, even though you’re just way off and anybody who’s ever had a shread of business experience can see that. I won’t debate that because…
The manufacturing cost is irrelevant. If it costs nothing to manufacture, hell if there’s a negative cost to manufacture it, it doesn’t rationalize someone stealing it from you.
If you own something, Omniscient, you can set the price that you are willing to sell it for. It doesn’t matter if it cost you a buck or $5M, you get to set the price. And if I don’t like that price you set, I can negotiate or I can not buy your product. Taking it from you against your will is not legal and it’s not moral.
And if I do steal it from you then start talking about what it cost you to build it, I’m just playing hand-waving mindgames to drag the conversation away from the real issue. Which is that I have stolen from you.
Good thing I don’t try to rationalize it, then.
Oh, and the cost may not excuse the higher amounts of theft, but they do explain them. CDs are ridiculously expensive and I’ll never buy another one, because they’re so expensive. Instead I’ll download from Napster and think “Hey, it’s free.” instead of “Hey, it’s not REALLY stealing” or “Hey, they charge too much” or anything else. Just that it’s ree.
No so. Looting is inherently harmful in that it involves taking something from someone, thereby leaving them without the possession of that item. Downloading music is not inherently harmful, but is potentially harmful in the larger view, in that it may deprive artists of revenue that they would have received from the legitimate purchase of their works.
D’oh! That should of course read “Not so.” I really should be asleep right now…
Mr. Feely wrote
There’s another lie and rationalization written solely to justify theft.
You’re claiming two things here, both of which are false and irrelevant. a) intellectual property isn’t real property, and b) the owner isn’t out anything, since to create another copy is free.
a) Intellectual property is property like any other. It’s a well-defined concept and accepted universally in virtually all nations. It is property that can be owned and sold like any other. In our modern world, intellectual property is a key part of our economic productivity.
b) As I discussed in a previous post, 1) your math is off; it’s not free, and 2) the manufacturing cost is irrelevant.
Dear God–
How many threads need to be started here regarding this issue?
I’m with Yohimbo- I use Napster and don’t feel bad about it at all.
Why not?
(Speaking for myself)
Because what difference does it make if I tape it off the radio or Napster? Record companies push like Hell to get their songs aired. Payolla anyone?
What the Fuck is the difference? The record industries effort to get the song aired means that they must think that people will go out and buy the record after they hear it. Right?
And where the Fuck do you get off calling me a thief? Read the other threads that have covered this issue, one in which I’ve participated in, and maybe you’ll see my (and others) point.
Starting a new thread calling us ‘thieves’ is a bit Bullshit, don’t you think?
Yeaaaa I’m a himbo . Do I get to be in Baywatch now ? I’ll bring my own red shorts. 
Sorry , and now back to the thread .
Yohimbo, himmy, himmness, it’s all the same to me.
To the others, it’s Yojimbo!
Are we square now?
Time to head back to the main thread on this topic. I have an issue with Arnold. If you don’t see me anytime soon you’ll know that he fried my computer through his super-powers.
No offense Arnold, I just don’t agree with you on this topic.
CnoteChris wrote
By the words in your post, it’s clear as a bell that you’re a thief. Look up the word; thievery is not a difficult concept to understand.
Now the question is “do you have a shread of remorse?” And again directly from the words in your post, it’s clear as a bell that you don’t.
Fortunately, that’s the value of laws. To enforce society’s collective morality on those who don’t display personal morality.
I do hope that your lack of morality in this issue doesn’t spill over into lapses with higher consequences to the people around you.
I just did a search and read your postings on the subject. I must say, they were completely lacking in intellectual content. All very similar to your last post on this thread. Your idea of a strong debate point seems to be the use of the word “fuck”.
CnoteChris, don’t even try to justify or defend yourself. The perfect being that is Bill has every right to judge you. Remember? He’s perfect, you’re not. And don’t forget it again!
Bill H.
Yojimbo mentioned lending books, tapes and video’s.
technically, its illegal to videotape, tape off the radio, photocopy from books, lend or swap books etc.
dont believe me?
Read the small print at the start of any modern printed book.
Bill H.
See ya in the pit!
Dear Bill H.,
You are right of course. Nobody likes being called a thief. From time to time, we all like to think that we occupy ground that is higher and more moral than that of other people.
It just isn’t true.
I balance the shame I feel with the economic reality that music is getting more and more expensive to buy, that I dont have the money to buy it, and the simple fact that I need music to live.
Peace.
Now John you can see that Bill doesn’t want to waiver from the topic.
Although he doesn’t seem to mind doing almost the same thing himself when he thinks he can make a point .
Can I change a few words in the second quote and direct it at Bill .
I do hope that your level of morality in this issue spills over into the rest of you life ?
Cnote, Yojimbo, Pepperland… you’re exploding unnecessarily.
Here’s what Bill’s saying: “If you steal Mp3’s, you’re a thief… and it disgusts me that a lot of thieves gloat about it.”
Plain and simple.
Moral high-ground? Judging? Hogwash.
That pretty much sounds like taking the moral highground to me and I don’t see where I’m exploding, sarcastic yes .
I am merely asking now that if Bill is so adamant in his disgust about music theft does he argue the same for all copyright issues. Or is this just the rant de jour .
I will however cease and desist in this forumn.
Hey all. I’ve been a publisher for far longer than I’d care to admit at this point. Currently my firm publishes books, magazine, newsletters, web sites and software.
Speaking from that point of view I’ve gotta tell you that it may cost $1.50 to burn a CD but there’s more to it than that. There’s royalties (to my authors), marketing, production, etc. That generally (for us) raises the cost to about $8 per CD that we publish. Similar numbers apply for our other products. So let’s not get carried away with just basing our cost comparisons against the actual cost of burning a CD.
Another point…we publish about 20 books per year. And in the marketplace there’s really no telling which ones will be winners and which will be losers. About 75% of our books will either lose money or just barely break even. That means the others have to make up the cost of those losses. Another cost-inflating factor that I don’t think is being considered here.
All that said I do have to agree that intellectual property is indeed property and it should be respected. I don’t read books or listen to music if I do not like and respect the creators. If I were to begin passing out illegally dubbed copies of a CD by a band I like and I were to meet them what would I tell them? If I were to copy Robert Heinleins books and distribute them what would I (provided he were alive, I admit. Let’s not get distracted.) tell him when he asked me about it.
It comes down to this for me:
It is beneath my dignity and self-respect for me to show that lack of respect to people who’s creativity I admire.
Can there be exceptions? Certainly. In my youth we didn’t have napster, we had bootlegs. Illicitly recorded concerts that were sold and traded (not even via the web! Mostly via fan clubs and BBS.). I spent a great deal of time collecting them. Eventually I stopped for the reasons outlined above. However, I know several bands that not only accepted the practice but encouraged it. The Greatful Dead, Queensryche and others all went out of their way at shows to allow fans to record their performances.
Given that I’d say that if an artist has made it clear that they don’t object to the distribution of their work via the web then go right ahead. It’s the lack of respecting the choices of those who do not wish their work distributed by this means that leads to the problems that Napster is facing.
Again, after spending all this powder on the issue I wish to repeat that theft of intellectual property is still theft. If you’re going to do it then have the courage to admit that you’re breaking the law. If you’re caught doing it don’t try to self-justify yourself…take your punishment cheerfully. If you disagree with a law to such an extent that you’re willing to break it repeatedly you should be prepared to pay the price. This tends to be necessary in campaigns that attempt to overturn laws that are perceived to be unjust.
To this we pledge our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honour…
Woof! Longest post ever for me! Back to work!
To all of you who are so certain that there’s no justification for the price difference between cassettes and CDs:
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How many of you have actually undertaken the cost of recording music for, mastering, pressing and distributing both a CD and a cassette, and are therefore aware of the per-unit difference even on a small scale? I have.
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How many of you are aware of the tremendous difference in durability, fidelity and dynamic range between CDs and cassettes? I am.
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How many of you are aware that CDs that are mass-marketed are not burned like the stuff you make in your CD-RW, but are stamped from a glass master, which is a lot more expensive than the DAT master provided for cassette runs? I am.
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How many of you are aware that artists get paid when their songs are played on the radio, while they never get paid when their songs are downloaded from Napster? I am.
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Trying to get music for free because you hate the Big Evil Record Companies is like driving away from your local independently-owned gas station without paying because you hate BP or Exxon.