# Musical Dopers, teach me about time signatures **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 29, 2004, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639 "2004-06-29T01:02:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Strainger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strainger/32/244_2.png) [@Strainger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strainger)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/21 "2004-06-29T21:15:14Z")
[QUOTE] **Fenris** And does the time sig. control where the accents go? [QUOTE] It generally indicates where the accents go, but not always. In the music, the accent is indicated by accent marks. Also, the way eighth notes are tied together will indicate the emphasis. As an example, consider Dave Brubeck’s _Blue Rondo a la Turk_ which is mostly in 9/8 ( **AHunter** may yell at me for getting too advanced). The counting/accents go as follows: ONE two THREE four FIVE six SEVEN eight nine (repeat 3x) ONE two three FOUR five six SEVEN eight nine The last part represents the more “typical” 9/8 accent pattern, but as you see, it doesn’t have to be that way. The first part is essentially three couplets and a triplet whereas the last part is a set of three triplets. They’re conducted to represent this, meaning the conductor gives a beat for each accented note, with each eight note having the same duration. Also, on the sheet music, each “group” of notes is tied together with the eighth note flag, i.e. the couplets are represented as two notes sharing a flag and the triplets are represented as three notes sharing a flag. 7/8 is generally something like: ONE two THREE four FIVE six seven, or ONE two three FOUR five SIX seven In sum, the trick in detemining the time signature isn’t so much how the accents go, but how the beats are subdivided. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/22 "2004-06-29T21:31:39Z")
I apologize if this was mentioned already, but I haven’t seen any mention of _harmonic_ rhythm. In _Send In the Clowns_, the reason one hears “send in the…” as a pickup, and hears “clowns” is the one-beat is because the tonic (I) chord falls on the word “clowns”. [The tonic is the “home” chord] If the chords were reversed, it would sound entirely different. And chords tend to change on the strong beats, which is why you hear them as being strong. It really doesn’t have that much to do with how loud you sing those beats or how long the notes are; it’s the harmony that you hear. Take _Old MacDonald_, for example, which is in 4/4 time. The first word “Old” starts on the tonic, and the chords change on the strong beats, 1 and/or 3: OLD macdonald/ HAD a FARM/ EE i EE i/ OH… But in _We Wish You a Merry Christmas_, in 3/4 time, the first word doesn’t start on the tonic, you hear it as a pickup. You hear it that way because the hamonies change on the strong beat, one: we/ WISH you a merry/ CHRISTMAS we/ WISH you a merry/ CHRISTMAS… So most of the time, it makes no sense to analyze the meter of a song without looking at the harmonies. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/23 "2004-06-29T22:00:05Z")
> [@Phase42](#): > > Writing the song in 12/8 instead of 4/4 is often a matter of convenience. For example, if the composer wanted 4 beats with each beat subdivided by 3, doing so in 4/4 time would require the notation of **triplets**. A triplet is where you have three equal beats in the space of one beat. Because beats are typically divided by factors of 2, a special notation is required to indicate a triplet: a bracket above or below the three notes in question, and the number “3” along with the bracket. As you can see, this requires extra writing and extra ink for the printer. So using a triplet is only really practical for “incidental” occurances of three-note patterns within an otherwise 4-based composition. If the composer wants the entire song to feature a triplet feel, it is far, far more practical to use 12/8 rather than 4/4 with a barrage of triplets. There are exceptions, of course. I’ve seen sheet music for “A Little Help from My Friends” which had the verses all in triplets. 12/8 for the verses and 4/4 for everything else would have made more sense. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/24 "2004-06-29T22:06:34Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > So most of the time, it makes no sense to analyze the meter of a song without looking at the harmonies. …except that in your examples, and in most cases with lyrics, the rhythm of the text dicatates at least as much of how we rhythmically interpret the melody. ---
**Author:** ![Jpeg\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/4bbf92/32.png) [@Jpeg\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jpeg_Jones)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/25 "2004-06-29T22:10:16Z")
> [@Jeff Olsen](#): > > There are exceptions, of course. I’ve seen sheet music for “A Little Help from My Friends” which had the verses all in triplets. 12/8 for the verses and 4/4 for everything else would have made more sense. Not necessarily. As a sight-reader, I’d much prefer to see triplets that last a few bars rather than a meter change. Especially if the pulse remains the same. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/26 "2004-06-29T23:13:36Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > Here’s how to count “Everything’s Alright”: > > ```auto > > 1 and 2 and 3 4 5 > TRY no- - t to get WORried > > etc. > > ``` > > The note lengths for each syllable are 8th, quarter, 8th, quarter, quarter, quarter. Like most songs in 5, 7, or other oddball amounts, there really aren’t 5 equally weighted beats. Instead, the first three go together, then the next two go together. ONE two three FOUR five ONE two three FOUR five. Similarly, the section of “Skimbleshanks” which is in 13 is in 3+3+3+4. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/27 "2004-06-30T01:14:43Z")
Good answers, all. I hope my additional information is up to the fine company. Regarding “Everything’s All Right”: I believe it is in 15/8 time, not 5/4. What’s the difference? Glad you asked. Triple times are really just a few math calculations. 5/4 time means there are 5 quarter notes per measure, each quarter note getting one beat. 15/8 means there are 5 triplets of 8 per measure, each triplet getting one beat. (5 triplets, or 5x3=15, or 15 8th notes. A triplet of 8th notes in 15/8 lasts the same as a quarter note in 5/4. See? Math.) The song has a sort of swing-y bounce to it, even though the actual lyrics are in a nice even 5/4 rhythm, the accompaniment is sort of jazzy. By the same token, a regular 4/4 beat turns into a swing beat with, you guessed it, math: it becomes 12/8, or four triplets of quarter notes (4x3=12) or twelve eighth notes per measure. An eighth triplet in 12/8 is played the same as a quarter note would be played in 4/4. You can also have a swing waltz beat: 3/4 time turns into 9/8. You could hear this in “My Favorite Things” from the Sound of Music, for instance. You might notice that making triplets as above means there’s no one note that lasts one beat. There is a way to note it, however, and that’s by dotting a note. A dot basically says “this note will last 50% again as long as normal.” A dotted quarter note becomes quarter + eighth. A dotted whole note becomes whole + half. A dotted sixteenth = sixteenth + thirty-second, and so on. Time signature isn’t absolute, either: you can convert from one to another. You could easily take a 4/4 song, such as Elton John’s “Border Song,” and re-arrange it in 12/8. That’s what Eric Clapton did, anyway. Most musicians can do this to a song in their heads without the trouble of re-writing every note. JC Superstar also has a good 7-beat theme to it, which is repeated in the numbers that go “will you touch will you heal me Christ” and “tell me Christ how you feel tonight”. A 7-beat riff always sounds as if it’s sort of … well, crowded and close, always starting a new measure before the listener is ready, sort of … I don’t know, jumping the gun. In those two numbers particularly, it makes the song edgy, as if the people at the temple (or the reporters) are closing in, not giving you a chance to catch up or take a breath. You may also remember the travesty that was the cover from the “Mission Impossible” theme. The original by Lalo Shifrin was in 10/8 (ONE two three FOUR five six SEVEN eight NINE ten) and changed to 4/4 for the rock band version. Wimps! If you listen to the music of the evil guys from the Lord of the Rings, you’ll notice they do a great deal in a five-beat, especially the music of Saruman and the orcs of Isengard. “ONE two THREE four five” is the count. It gives the song a brutal, unnatural rhythm with Shore’s arrangement (though not all five-beat music works that way). A final caveat about time signatures: you _could_ technically create a 15/8 signature that didn’t accent in 5 easy triplets of eighths. Hell, you could write in 26/4. As a composer you’d want to be specific how you wanted that played by providing the accented beats for the first few measures. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/28 "2004-06-30T01:25:10Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > Triple times are really just a few math calculations. 5/4 time means there are 5 quarter notes per measure, each quarter note getting one beat. 15/8 means there are 5 triplets of 8 per measure, each triplet getting one beat. (5 triplets, or 5x3=15, or 15 8th notes. A triplet of 8th notes in 15/8 lasts the same as a quarter note in 5/4. Slight quibble - it’s not a ‘_triplet_ of 8th notes in 15/8’, but just a group of three 8th notes. A triplet within 15/8 would take us on another level of reduction (equal to 2 regular 15/8 8th-notes). FWIW, all this notating in 12/8 just to represent groups of 3s is completely unnecessary. Beethoven would write such patterns all the time, and simply by beaming the 16th or 18th notes in question into groups of three, it’s perfectly obvious what’s going on without a change away from 4/4. > [@](#): > > A final caveat about time signatures: you _could_ technically create a 15/8 signature that didn’t accent in 5 easy triplets of eighths. Hell, you could write in 26/4. As a composer you’d want to be specific how you wanted that played by providing the accented beats for the first few measures. There’s other methods also sometimes used, such as dotted lines indicating the subdivisions, or even extra marks above the stave. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/29 "2004-06-30T02:04:52Z")
It’s not a triplet in the musical sense, **GorillaMan** , I agree. It’s also probably too technical a nit to pick, given the musical background of the person asking. ---
**Author:** ![scott\_evil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/91b2a8/32.png) [@scott\_evil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scott_evil)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/30 "2004-06-30T02:18:51Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Similarly, the section of “Skimbleshanks” which is in 13 is in 3+3+3+4. That’s what I mean when I say ALW chickens out. 😉 > [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > Here’s how to count “Everything’s Alright”: > > ```auto > > 1 and 2 and 3 4 5 > TRY no- - t to get WORried > > etc. > > ``` > > The note lengths for each syllable are 8th, quarter, 8th, quarter, quarter, quarter. What **rowrrbazzle** said. And I disagree with **MaxTheVool** on this one. When eighths are grouped in three (either as a beat in an x/8 time signature, and not as a triplet over two in a x/4 sig), the resulting time signature (6/8, 12/8) is most commonly assumed to be either 3 beats, each containing three eighth note “pulses” (DA da da DA da da DA da da) or similarly, four eighth note pulses. For “Everything’s Alright”, an 8th rest, followed by an 8th, quarter, and 8th is a very common syncopation, possibly leading you to think you’re in 3/4 time for a minute (as in, a final beat to the bar is awaiting, and a new bar with a new downbeat will start). But then you get those “get wor-ried” quarters. 2 + 3 = 5. > [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > I’ve pulled out my vocal score of “West Side Story”. > > The time signature is written once at the beginning of the main section of “America” thus: > > ```auto > > 6 3 > - ( - ) > 8 4 > > ``` > > with the parentheses being tall ones to enclose the entire 3/4. > > There’s actually no consistent indication in the vocal part beyond that to indicate the alternating time signatures. What I was taught in university was that if you’re going to be alternating between two time signatures every other bar for a large section of the piece, you’re to write exactly that: ```auto 6 3 8 4 ``` at the beginning of said section. This means bar odd bars are in 6/8; even bars are in 3/4, until a new time signature comes along. > [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > However, in the piano accompaniment in this score, accent marks “\>” are used in the bass line as **GorillaMan** said. Also in the accompaniment, the 8th notes are barred together as appropriate - 3 together in the 6/8 bars, 2 together in the 3/4 bars. (Instead of single flags on the individual 8th notes which is what the vocal part has, in the accompaniment they are connected by a single bar.) And how is “-mer - I - ca” (the vocal line) notated in the 3/4 bars? According to proper notation, they should be quarter notes. But I’m picky, which is why I hate notating my own music because of the wacky shit I do sometimes. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/31 "2004-06-30T03:53:08Z")
> [@scott evil](#): > > And ALW uses irregular time signatures fairly regularly, but tends to chicken out and revert quickly to a regular time signature. For instance, in “Skimbleshanks the Railway Cat”, he starts in 13/8, but then reverts to 4/4 as soon as the verse starts. Mind you, he was a bit restricted by what T.S. Eliot wrote, but a song entirely in 13/8 would have been fun. Frank Zappa did just such a thing. The song **Thirteen** , which I think is on one of the You Can’t Do That On Stage Anymore releases. They begin the vamp, and Frank starts explaining to the audience that this song is in 13. Then vocalizes the beat to demonstrate: ONE two ONE two three ONE TWO THREE FOUR It took me a minute to realize that the last four beats are actually eight beats; he was counting every other one. It should have been obvious, though, considering he drawled them at half the speed of the first five lightning quick beats. The entire song is in that signature. Not my favorite song, mind you, but I do like it. And, as always, an excellent guitar solo creeps in. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/32 "2004-06-30T05:34:35Z")
> [@scott evil](#): > > And how is “-mer - I - ca” (the vocal line) notated in the 3/4 bars? According to proper notation, they should be quarter notes. And they are. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/33 "2004-06-30T07:09:26Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > …except that in your examples, and in most cases with lyrics, the rhythm of the text dicatates at least as much of how we rhythmically interpret the melody. Of course it’s important; I never said otherwise. Strong syllables tend to fall on strong beats, otherwise the song would sound stilted. But the harmony is just as important. Take the line: “This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius” If one spoke that sentence normally, it would be emphasized as: THIS is the dawning of the age of aQUARius. But in the song, the strong beats fall like this: this is the DAWNing of the AGE of aquarius In fact, there’s a “stop time” up until the word “age”, where a new chord starts, but there’s nothing intrinsic to the text that would tell you that. Both things are important. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/34 "2004-06-30T18:35:13Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > By the same token, a regular 4/4 beat turns into a swing beat with, you guessed it, math: it becomes 12/8, or four triplets of quarter notes (4x3=12) or twelve eighth notes per measure. An eighth triplet in 12/8 is played the same as a quarter note would be played in 4/4. > > You can also have a swing waltz beat: 3/4 time turns into 9/8. You could hear this in “My Favorite Things” from the Sound of Music, for instance. Since we’re being picky with our nits, while a swing beat can be notated as 12/8 (and sometimes is,) it’s more customary to see it notated in 4/4 with a note to play it swung. The reason is that swing is not perfectly mathematical. Depending on the performer, the amount of rhythmic swing can vary. Some players play very close to straight eighths, just barely stretching the first beat and cutting the second; others are perhaps closer to a shuffle rhythm. Plus swing isn’t only about the rhythm. Another element is the accent patterns. In classical music, you would generally slightly accent the first note in an eighth note pair. In jazz and swing, the emphasis is slightly on the second half of the pair. You can swing something in almost perfect straight eighths this way. Also, to further complicate the time signature issue, some modern composers have time signature in which the bottom number is not a power of 2 (like, say, 8/5). I know…sounds crazy, and I didn’t believe it, but there’s a thread here on the Straight Dope somewhere explaining it. ---
**Author:** ![scott\_evil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/91b2a8/32.png) [@scott\_evil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scott_evil)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/35 "2004-06-30T19:11:55Z")
Let me get even _more_ nitpicky: Stephen Sondheim wrote only the _lyrics_ to West Side Story (and a few other shows). All of this 6/8-3/4 stuff was written by Leonard Bernstein. 😃 Interesting, though, that in “Not Getting Married Today” from _Company_ (what many consider Sondheim’s first big hit of a show), Amy’s frantic bit seems to be all in 4/4. Maybe this was to be considerate of the singer (in the original Broadway production, Beth Howland, better known as Vera on TV’s “Alice”), because on first listening, Amy’s frantic patter seems like an impossible tongue twister, but when you break it down a bit, it doesn’t seem that complicated at all, and something any good singer could pull off with plenty of practice. However, imagine if it had been in 7/8 or 13/8… ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/36 "2004-06-30T20:30:19Z")
Of course, **pulykamell**. Written music is analogous to the written word: a limited palette of symbols that tries to capture the full range of expression possible by sounds. Just as a poetry reading has some degree of interpretation, so does sheet music. I have seen music as you describe written Q Q Q Q = Q. E Q. E or quarter quarter = dotted-quarter eigth to denote a swing beat. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/37 "2004-06-30T20:46:56Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Also, to further complicate the time signature issue, some modern composers have time signature in which the bottom number is not a power of 2 (like, say, 8/5). I know…sounds crazy, and I didn’t believe it, but there’s a thread here on the Straight Dope somewhere explaining it. **AHunter** touched on odd bottom numbers in this very thread. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/38 "2004-06-30T21:00:09Z")
> [@Jeff Olsen](#): > > **AHunter** touched on odd bottom numbers in this very thread. Yes, but his guess of how they work isn’t correct ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/39 "2004-06-30T21:20:49Z")
Didn’t say it was. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jpeg\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/4bbf92/32.png) [@Jpeg\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jpeg_Jones)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/40 "2004-06-30T21:56:38Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > …there’s a thread here on the Straight Dope somewhere explaining it. [Here it is.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=234983&page=1&pp=40) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639.md?page=3)