# Musical Dopers, teach me about time signatures **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 29, 2004, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639 "2004-06-29T01:02:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/41 "2004-06-30T22:10:54Z")
> [@Jpeg Jones](#): > > [Here it is.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=234983&page=1&pp=40) Ah, yes…that’s the one…I still have to get me a hold of some Ferneyhough to hear what this sounds like. And I misremembered it … his time signature was x/10, not an odd number (but not a power of two, either.) Still, if you could write it over ten, you can write something over five. **Fish** -That sort of swing notation has always peeved me…it’s way too extreme (in most cases) to notate two eighths as a dotted eighth followed by a sixteenth (I don’t think I’ve ever seen dotted-quarter/eighth like you mention.) A bit more accurate is the other common convention, which notates two eighths as a triplet consisting of a quarter followed by an eighth. (So the swing value is distributed 66/33 rather than 75/25.) Most musicians won’t get confused either way, but still… I just don’t like it. ---
**Author:** ![Jpeg\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/4bbf92/32.png) [@Jpeg\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jpeg_Jones)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/42 "2004-06-30T22:37:45Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > A bit more accurate is the other common convention, which notates two eighths as a triplet consisting of a quarter followed by an eighth. (So the swing value is distributed 66/33 rather than 75/25.) Most musicians won’t get confused either way, but still… I just don’t like it. I’ll hazard a guess why you don’t like it (I don’t either): It’s too busy looking. When you’ve got a triplet quarter with a triplet eighth, you have to use a bracket. This looks really ugly when you’re doing it throughout the entire piece. I _definitely_ prefer a simple “swing” designation at the top and plain eighths written. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/43 "2004-06-30T23:22:49Z")
> [@scott evil](#): > > Let me get even _more_ nitpicky: > > Stephen Sondheim wrote only the _lyrics_ to West Side Story (and a few other shows). All of this 6/8-3/4 stuff was written by Leonard Bernstein. 😃 As long as we’re nitpicking (heh), I read a biography of Bernstein in which he was reported as saying Sondheim did write a couple of the numbers on his own. But he didn’t say which ones! Fun to speculate: “Officer Krupke”, maybe? ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/44 "2004-06-30T23:46:46Z")
If I remember the song right, **pulykamell** , it was “Only the Good Die Young” and written Q Q = Q. E and notated _shuffle beat_. “52nd Street” may have been noted Q Q = E\_E E, although I can’t recall at the moment. (I haven’t actually needed the sheet for those songs in years.) My MIDI program could adjust 4/4 time to any degree of shuffle you indicated from 50% to 75%. ---
**Author:** ![Strainger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strainger/32/244_2.png) [@Strainger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strainger)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/45 "2004-07-01T00:52:43Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Slight quibble - it’s not a ‘_triplet_ of 8th notes in 15/8’, but just a group of three 8th notes. True. I tried to come up with a better term in my post to convey my thought and finally settled on ‘triplet’ which I realize is playing fast and loose with the term. ---
**Author:** ![scott\_evil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/91b2a8/32.png) [@scott\_evil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scott_evil)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/46 "2004-07-01T00:56:01Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > As long as we’re nitpicking (heh), I read a biography of Bernstein in which he was reported as saying Sondheim did write a couple of the numbers on his own. But he didn’t say which ones! Fun to speculate: “Officer Krupke”, maybe? s’possible. I doubt anything like “Maria” or “There’s A Place For Us” were actually composed by Sondheim. The hard part is that Sondheim doesn’t even sound like Sondheim, from show to show. It’s not like sticking an overwrought ALW ballad in, say, Avenue Q. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/47 "2004-07-01T07:03:30Z")
> [@Jpeg Jones](#): > > I’ll hazard a guess why you don’t like it (I don’t either): > > It’s too busy looking. When you’ve got a triplet quarter with a triplet eighth, you have to use a bracket. This looks really ugly when you’re doing it throughout the entire piece. > > I _definitely_ prefer a simple “swing” designation at the top and plain eighths written. I couldn’t agree more. It’s very silly to try to notate swing. In a jazz chart, it would simply be written as 1/8 notes. The only reasonable way to do it is to just write 1/8 notes and write “swing” over it. If ‘legit’ players don’t know how to swing, you aren’t gonna get them to do it right by writing triplets. You either _can_ swing or you _can’t_. ---
**Author:** ![scott\_evil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/91b2a8/32.png) [@scott\_evil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scott_evil)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/48 "2004-07-01T16:18:19Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > I couldn’t agree more. It’s very silly to try to notate swing. In a jazz chart, it would simply be written as 1/8 notes. The only reasonable way to do it is to just write 1/8 notes and write “swing” over it. If ‘legit’ players don’t know how to swing, you aren’t gonna get them to do it right by writing triplets. You either _can_ swing or you _can’t_. Don’t know if anyone’s mentioned it, but I’ve seen swing written in 4/4 with an indication right at the beginning of the piece: dotted eighth bracketed to sixteenth = quarter and eighth as a one-beat triplet ```auto _____ --3-- | -| = | |` o. o o o ``` (Sorry, that was horrible.) But it makes the point pretty well, right at the beginning of the piece, and you’re not stuck constantly writing triplet brackets over everything, which is a pain. ---
**Author:** ![Jpeg\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/4bbf92/32.png) [@Jpeg\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jpeg_Jones)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639/49 "2004-07-01T16:46:45Z")
Hey, **scott evil** , that was pretty clever coding! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musical-dopers-teach-me-about-time-signatures/252639.md?page=2)