# Musicals with good scripts **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 7, 2007, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicals-with-good-scripts/394886 "2007-03-07T00:45:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicals-with-good-scripts/394886/1 "2007-03-07T00:45:16Z")
I’m not really a fan of musicals but the thread about the difference between operas and musicals got me thinking about this subject. In most musicals (both stage and film), the dialogue exists to move the plot along and act as a resting period between songs. The quality of the script is entirely secondary to the quality of the music. However, there are times when a script is memorable on its own (i.e., it matches or exceeds the quality of the musical score). This thread is about exactly those stage and film musicals. What musicals qualify? Just so it’s not too easy, I’m excluding musical-versions of non-musical plays or films like “West Side Story” ("Romeo and Juliet) or “The Producers”. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicals-with-good-scripts/394886/2 "2007-03-07T00:56:28Z")
The best book (i.e. script) of any musical is the one for _1776_. The songs often have brilliant lyrics as well: “Molasses to Rum” is the best short explanation of the economic basis of the distinct economies of the north and south you’ll ever get. There’s a lot of talk in this very long play. [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1776_(musical)) has this note: > [@](#): > > Scene Three of 1776 holds the record for the longest time in a musical without a single note of music played or sung: over twenty minutes pass between The Lees of Old Virginia and But Mr. Adams, the next number. In between songs you have incredible dialog, wit, history, characterization, and irony. _1776_ is one of the pinnacles of playwriting. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicals-with-good-scripts/394886/3 "2007-03-07T02:01:05Z")
Darn you, **Exapno** , I came here precisely to mention **1776**. I saw that on Broadway, loved the movie (which I have , restored, on DVD), own the script, and have performed in it. Peter Stone researched it, among other places, near where I grew up. Stone was responsible for the scripts of **Charade** and **Mirage** (And **Who’s Killing the Great Chefs of Europe?** , but I’ll forgive him that), and for the musical \*\* Titanic\*\*, which I haven’t seen. Great stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicals-with-good-scripts/394886/4 "2007-03-07T02:26:59Z")
I (somewhat vaguely) remember liking the script of **How To Succeed In Business Without Really Trying** , and, when looking it up on Wikipedia, ran across the list of [Tony Award winners for Best Book](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Award_for_Best_Book_of_a_Musical). For what it’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicals-with-good-scripts/394886/5 "2007-03-07T03:21:42Z")
More importantly, **How to Succeed** won a Pulitzer, as did **A Chorus Line** , which is a fine play even without the music (though the music is great). I’d disagree with the assessment in the OP: most modern musicals (at least since **Oklahoma!** and sometimes before) worked hard to integrate the songs into story. Much as I detest Songheim, his musicals do work as hard at being a good play as any straight play on Broadway. Other musicals with a good book include **Cabaret, Guys and Dolls, Les Miserables, Chicago, The Producers, The Music Man** and **Kiss Me Kate**. And that’s just a start. > [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > The best book (i.e. script) of any musical is the one for 1776. The songs often have brilliant lyrics as well: “Molasses to Rum” is the best short explanation of the economic basis of the distinct economies of the north and south you’ll ever get. Trivia tidbit: the best known song by **1776** ’s composer is the oldie “See You in September.” ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicals-with-good-scripts/394886/6 "2007-03-07T03:25:07Z")
I like **Into the Woods**. The first half is light and funny. The second half is dark and funny. It’s like one of those things, that’s half light and half dark. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicals-with-good-scripts/394886/7 "2007-03-07T03:43:34Z")
_My Fair Lady_ keeps a lot of good stuff from Shaw’s play. ---
**Author:** ![pinkfreud](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pinkfreud/32/17603_2.png) [@pinkfreud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkfreud)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicals-with-good-scripts/394886/8 "2007-03-07T04:07:30Z")
**A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum** would be hilarious even without the songs. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicals-with-good-scripts/394886/9 "2007-03-07T04:55:34Z")
**Fiddler on the Roof** ---
**Author:** ![Hoops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoops/32/6408_2.png) [@Hoops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoops)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicals-with-good-scripts/394886/10 "2007-03-07T05:12:21Z")
Among current musicals, I would nominate **Jersey Boys** (disclaimer: I am involved with the show, so take this with a big grain of salt). Yeah, I know, jukebox musical, blah blah blah . . . but it’s really more of a straight play that, since it’s about musicians, happens to feature a lot of music. The writing is really outstanding, often funny, occasionally poignant (co-writer Marshall Brickman co-wrote Annie Hall and Manhattan with Woody Allen and was a head writer on The Tonight Show With Johnny Carson, so he clearly knows funny). I’ve seen it (albeit with a severely obstructed view) well over 500 times, and there are still times that it makes me laugh and brings a tear to my eye. ---
**Author:** ![DooWahDiddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@DooWahDiddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooWahDiddy)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicals-with-good-scripts/394886/11 "2007-03-07T06:08:40Z")
[QUOTE=RealityChuck] Other musicals with a good book include **Cabaret, Guys and Dolls, Les Miserables, Chicago, The Producers, The Music Man** and **Kiss Me Kate**. And that’s just a start. [/QUOTE] Isn’t _Les Miz_ completely sung-through? ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicals-with-good-scripts/394886/12 "2007-03-07T06:42:36Z")
Anything by Sondheim, especially **Company**. I was surprised at how much of that show is actually dialogue. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicals-with-good-scripts/394886/13 "2007-03-07T07:42:41Z")
[QUOTE=RealityChuck] I’d disagree with the assessment in the OP: most modern musicals (at least since **Oklahoma!** and sometimes before) worked hard to integrate the songs into story. [/QUOTE] I wasn’t saying such successful integration (i.e., where the script is just as or even stronger than the score) was rare–I just think it’s in the minority. Plus, this thread also covers movie musicals so that probably brings the success-to-failure ratio down. Basically, the test for a good script in a musical is if you took away all the songs and dance numbers, you’d still have enough memorable scenes and lines of dialogue left over to make it worthwhile. “My Fair Lady” doesn’t count in this thread because it was a musical version of a play. As for suggestions, how about some of the Marx Brothers’ movies like **Horsefeathers** and **Duck Soup**? However, the only problem I could see is that in these examples, the dialogue is so much stronger than most of the music that most people forget these movies are musicals. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicals-with-good-scripts/394886/14 "2007-03-07T07:59:03Z")
The best musicals have good books, just like every other storytelling medium must have a good story. _1776_ (my personal favorite) and _Into the Woods_ stand out to me, but I haven’t seen them all, of course. I had the misfortune of getting stuck with _[Rags](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rags_%28musical%29)_ in high school, which, despite its Tony nomination, had a horrid book (IMHO) and convaluted story, but good music. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicals-with-good-scripts/394886/15 "2007-03-07T14:18:37Z")
[QUOTE=NDP] I wasn’t saying such successful integration (i.e., where the script is just as or even stronger than the score) was rare–I just think it’s in the minority. [/quote] Well, for Broadway, it’s been in the majority since the late 40s. The ideal is to integrate story with music, and most musicals do that as a matter of course. There are exceptions (for instance, **The Pajama Game** has no plot at all, just terrific songs), but generally stage musicals try to tell a compelling story. > [@](#): > > Plus, this thread also covers movie musicals so that probably brings the success-to-failure ratio down. Basically, the test for a good script in a musical is if you took away all the songs and dance numbers, you’d still have enough memorable scenes and lines of dialogue left over to make it worthwhile. Well, there is an issue that nowadays the songs are so integrated into the story that they can’t be removed. If you took the songs from **A Chorus Line** , for instance, you’d know very little about the characters, a problem, since the play is entirely character-driven. But it would work just fine as a straight play with the characters telling their stories as dialog. > [@](#): > > “My Fair Lady” doesn’t count in this thread because it was a musical version of a play. Well, many musicals are rewritten from existing sources. They are very often based on plays ( **My Fair Lady, Mame** ), books ( **Damn Yankees, Show Boat** , movies ( **The Producers** ), biography ( **Fiorello, Jersey Boys, The King and I** ) or other works ( **Into the Woods** ). > [@](#): > > As for suggestions, how about some of the Marx Brothers’ movies like **Horsefeathers** and **Duck Soup**? However, the only problem I could see is that in these examples, the dialogue is so much stronger than most of the music that most people forget these movies are musicals. The heyday of movie musicals was in the 30s, when the concept of integrated musical hadn’t quite become standard. However, **Singin’ in the Rain** fits what you’re asking for, since the story is as great as the songs. Others would include **Bugsy Malone, Everyone Says I Love You, 42nd Street** and **Footlight Parade** (which goes for quite a long time between musical numbers – maybe longer than **1776** ). ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicals-with-good-scripts/394886/16 "2007-03-07T14:32:44Z")
> [@](#): > > A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum would be hilarious even without the songs. I agree, but I want to point out that the stage version has a _lot_ more songs than the movie. The scripts are different, too – the stage script was co-written by Larry Gelbart (best known for developing and writing TV’s **M.A.S.H.** ). The screenplay was extensively rewritten (partly at Phil Silver’s request, I;‘ve heard, to give him more screen time) by Jon Pertwee (One of the Dr. Whos!! But also a prolific playwright himself – I’ve seen one of his farces in London), who finagled himself a bit part as the guy who tells Phil Silvers’ Marcus Licus that there’s no plague in Crete. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicals-with-good-scripts/394886/17 "2007-03-07T16:59:36Z")
[QUOTE=RealityChuck] (for instance, **The Pajama Game** has no plot at all, just terrific songs), [/QUOTE] 😕😕😕 A labor union is negotiating for a wage increase, the PJ company is showing stiff resistance, and the newly-hired middle manager has to negotiate a minefield of personalities and potential work stoppages while also dating the union head, and the musical has “no plot”? 😕😕😕 My vote goes for the exquisite **Pennies from Heaven** (i.e. the best musical of the last 40 years), written by Dennis Potter, who’s best known for high-end TV productions in the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Kizarvexius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Kizarvexius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kizarvexius)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicals-with-good-scripts/394886/18 "2007-03-07T17:33:46Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] The best book (i.e. script) of any musical is the one for _1776_. The songs often have brilliant lyrics as well: “Molasses to Rum” is the best short explanation of the economic basis of the distinct economies of the north and south you’ll ever get. There’s a lot of talk in this very long play. [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1776_(musical)) has this note: > [@](#): > > Scene Three of 1776 holds the record for the longest time in a musical without a single note of music played or sung: over twenty minutes pass between The Lees of Old Virginia and But Mr. Adams, the next number. In between songs you have incredible dialog, wit, history, characterization, and irony. _1776_ is one of the pinnacles of playwriting. [/QUOTE] When I was in college, I got ahold of a tape of _1776_ and was watching it with a few friends on the big screen TV in the lounge of my dorm (note: it was an all men’s dorm, populated largely by jocks). As the aforementioned Scene Three progressed, a number of passers by were pulled in by the hilarious dialog, and after a while quite a crowd had accumulated. Then Ben Franklin started singing. There was a collective gasp. One voice piped up, speaking for many: “Holy shit, dude…it’s a _musical_.” And the crowd stampeded for the exit like so many debutantes confronted by a turd in the punch bowl. The real kicker is that for the rest of the week, I was lending the tape out to various parties who all asked that I respect their confidentiality and refrain from mentioning the transaction to anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicals-with-good-scripts/394886/19 "2007-03-07T17:42:41Z")
_South Park: Bigger, Longer, Uncut_ would have still been excellent without the songs. Same for _Lady and the Tramp_ and _Cinderella_. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicals-with-good-scripts/394886/20 "2007-03-07T18:13:36Z")
[QUOTE=NDP] As for suggestions, how about some of the Marx Brothers’ movies like **Horsefeathers** and **Duck Soup**? However, the only problem I could see is that in these examples, the dialogue is so much stronger than most of the music that most people forget these movies are musicals. [/QUOTE] The only true Marx Brothers musicals are The Cocoanuts and Animal Crackers, which were Broadway musical comedies transferred to film. The later movies had an occasional song, often as part of a grand opening sequence, but weren’t musicals in any real sense. A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum is probably my second favorite musical - first on a good day. Remember when Sondheim wrote songs you could hum? Remember when anyone did? > [@Reality Chuck](#): > > Trivia tidbit: the best known song by 1776’s composer is the oldie “See You in September.” Heck, “See You In September” is only three years older than 1776. They’re all oldies. You could argue that to the previous generation Sherman Edwards’ best known song is Johnny Mathis’ “Wonderful, Wonderful.” It’s truly odd that he only did the one Broadway play.