# Musicians and the 'four-count' heads up
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [July 5, 2003, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320 "2003-07-05T00:43:41Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@omni-not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omni-not)
#### Post date: [July 5, 2003, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/1 "2003-07-05T00:43:41Z")
Why did (do?) some musicians count up to four (McCartney on Sergeant Pepper comes to mind) before starting a tune? And why are there variations in the number (mostly either ‘one, two, three’ or ‘one, two, three, four’)?
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### Author:  [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)
#### Post date: [July 5, 2003, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/2 "2003-07-05T00:55:09Z")
IANAM (I am not a musician), but I would guess that they’re setting the tempo for the song. As for the “1234” vs. “123”, it would depend on the time signature of the song. A song in 4/4 time would get a four-count, and a song in 3/4 time would get a three-count.
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### Author:  [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)
#### Post date: [July 5, 2003, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/3 "2003-07-05T00:58:37Z")
It’s so everyone starts at the same time and it also sets the empo for the song.
As far as the count goes it depends on the time signature of the song.
Most radio stuff is in 4-4 time. 4 1/4 notes per meaure. So you count to 4 to start the song. If the song is in 3/4 time (probably the next most used time signiture) you count to 3.
Slee
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### Author:  [@omni-not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omni-not)
#### Post date: [July 5, 2003, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/4 "2003-07-05T01:01:02Z")
Thanks for the input, **Joe**. But don’t the others _know_ the tempo already, if only for practicing a given song to death. I love music, but I don’t know anything about the ‘technical’ aspects of it (as is plain to see:D). So, sorry if this is a less than brilliant sub question.
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### Author:  [@omni-not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omni-not)
#### Post date: [July 5, 2003, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/5 "2003-07-05T01:06:35Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by sleestak \*
> **Most radio stuff is in 4-4 time.**
Could you expand on that, **Slee**. I fail to see the relationship between radio play and 4-4 time. Why does it have to be so?
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### Author:  [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)
#### Post date: [July 5, 2003, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/6 "2003-07-05T01:06:52Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by omni-not \*
> \*\*Thanks for the input, **Joe**. But don’t the others _know_ the tempo already, if only for practicing a given song to death. \*\*
Yeah, they should be able to keep the tempo find once they get going, but musicians aren’t human metronomes; Without a conductor, they have to listen to each other to maintain the same tempo. When starting a song, if several of the musicians have to start playing at the same time, it’s very difficult to keep things together during the first couple of bars without some sort of countoff.
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### Author:  [@omni-not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omni-not)
#### Post date: [July 5, 2003, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/7 "2003-07-05T01:11:55Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Joe Random \*
> \*\*it’s very difficult to keep things together during the first couple of bars without some sort of countoff. \*\*
_That_, I totally understand. It was the three and four bit that had me confused. I naively thought, it was left to the ‘leader’s’ whim. But both you and **Slee** managed to give a clear explanation to this neophyte. This neophyte is grateful.🙂
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### Author:  [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)
#### Post date: [July 5, 2003, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/8 "2003-07-05T01:12:28Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by omni-not \*
> \*\*I fail to see the relationship between radio play and 4-4 time. Why does it have to be so? \*\*
It doesn’t _have_ to be; It just _is_. The majority of Western music is in 4/4 time, so of course the majority of what’s on the radio is going to be in 4/4 time.
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### Author:  [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)
#### Post date: [July 5, 2003, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/9 "2003-07-05T01:15:34Z")
As a drummer, I used to do the 4-count, and **sleestak** is correct. Think of it this way: If I count down the tempo as **1-2-3-4** then the rest of the group knows that the very next beat begins the song, and everyone starts on time.
The four-count is **always** done. One of the many bands I played in, the lead guitarist would just swing his guitar up and then down and we would start to play. But it’s still a way to start the song together.
Another way that comes to mind is when the lead guitarist starts a lick by himself and the other instruments “layer in”. A song to represent this method is **The Allman Brothers Band** version of _You Don’t Love me_, the old Willie Cobbs tune, which you can find on the Brothers _Live at The Fillnore East_.
Quasi
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### Author:  [@omni-not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omni-not)
#### Post date: [July 5, 2003, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/10 "2003-07-05T01:17:04Z")
Yeah…I realized, a bit late, that my last sentence should have been rephrased. So, then, there is no special reason, except for the fact that…that’s just the way things are, eh?
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### Author:  [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)
#### Post date: [July 5, 2003, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/11 "2003-07-05T01:23:28Z")
Fill **more** East, sorry!
Q
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### Author:  [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)
#### Post date: [July 5, 2003, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/12 "2003-07-05T01:25:36Z")
And up there I wrote “the 4 count is **always** done”. That should have read “ **isn’t** always done”.
And I’m stone cold sober, too, damn!
😃
Q
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### Author:  [@omni-not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omni-not)
#### Post date: [July 5, 2003, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/13 "2003-07-05T01:32:21Z")
You sure you haven’t left something else out, Q? 😃
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### Author:  [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)
#### Post date: [July 5, 2003, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/14 "2003-07-05T01:50:48Z")
I actually want to maybe amend something here. You will also hear a 3 count if you’ve got a tune in 4 that starts on the pickup. In fact, from my experience, this is more common than a 3 count for a song in 3, as more rock/pop songs are in 4 than 3.
You also might just hear a “3, 4,” which is just the last two beats of a bar, so that the drummer (or whoever) doesn’t have to count out one whole measure of empty time.
I’ve just got to say, my all-time favorite 4 count on an album is in the middle of the song **Born to Run** off the album of the same name by Bruce Springsteen.
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### Author:  [@DougC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DougC)
#### Post date: [July 5, 2003, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/15 "2003-07-05T02:24:01Z")
-
-
- For studio recording if using a verbal count will cause any problems, they use low and high beeps in time with the music, low-low-low-high. They put them on tracks that are removed after the intended tracks are recorded, and (during in-studio recording) they usually repeat until the drummer begins playing. The notes are very short plain beeps. Some PC music creation software includes the ability to insert these (two specific) notes, just for this purpose.
~
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### Author:  [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)
#### Post date: [July 5, 2003, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/16 "2003-07-05T07:41:47Z")
4/4 time is just SO common in western culture’s music.
Well, except for waltzes, which are in 3/4, IIRC. And stuff from Yes and Rush, often. And other tricky bands.
But seriously, just see if you can count 1-2-3-4 along with the radio next time you have it on, and you’ll find out almost for sure that you’re coming to the main beat in the same place every time.
I now have a question: Is the main beat considered generally to be the 1 or the 4? I used to play violin as a kid, but with that instrument, you don’t usually get to play with someone providing a beat and emphasizing it.
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### Author:  [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)
#### Post date: [July 5, 2003, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/17 "2003-07-05T08:17:39Z")
The down beat is usually on 2 and 4. Think one TWO three FOUR. The simplest way to figure it out is to listen for the snare.
Of coarse it depends on the type of music or band. For example listening to Rush and counting can get somewhat confusing the first time around as they tend to change time signatures often.
Slee
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### Author:  [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)
#### Post date: [July 5, 2003, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/18 "2003-07-05T08:18:24Z")
I like music that’s in 5/4. Like, for example, the original _Mission Impossible_ theme, and a cool jazzy number called _Take 5_ (named after its time signature, I believe).
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### Author:  [@omni-not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omni-not)
#### Post date: [July 5, 2003, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/19 "2003-07-05T12:45:00Z")
Thanks all. As I said, I **love** music, but am totally unaware of its mechanics. Now, I know a little more.
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### Author:  [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)
#### Post date: [July 5, 2003, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/20 "2003-07-05T13:37:00Z")
The count-in as used by _The Beatles_ (and others) is frequently decorative or structural and rarely wholly functional (in the sense of setting the tempo) – the multiple, layered count-ins at the start of _Taxman_ being a striking example. Even in the 60s recording technology would have allowed extraneous count-ins to be editted out.
My classical guitar duo partner and I can start on the vaguest of nods, but I like to mess wiv 'er 'ead by counting in “2-3-4”\* _regardless_ of time signatures. Sometimes I don’t even count in at the right tempo (beats per minute), it doesn’t matter that much at all, just hitting the first beat together is usually enough to get started.
Also, whilst it is true that 4/4 is the most common time signature (oops, no pun intended) in the world of rock ‘n’ roll, a quick glance through my duo repertoire tells me that 3/4 and 6/8 are more frequently occurring there.
\*I don’t know why the “1” is missed out
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