# Musicians and the 'four-count' heads up **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 5, 2003, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320 "2003-07-05T00:43:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/21 "2003-07-05T14:43:02Z")
[QUOTE] \*or ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/22 "2003-07-05T14:50:35Z")
Hmm–I’m having some trouble with the reply function. Let’s try it this way. \*\*sleestak \*\* wrote: \*The down beat is usually on 2 and 4. Think one TWO three FOUR. The simplest way to figure it out is to listen for the snare. \* The downbeat is, by definition, the “one.” You’re thinking of a **backbeat**. Another point: it is not necessary for the count to match the time signature of the piece. I will give a standard four-count for a tune in 7/8–it does the job of setting the tempo, and doesn’t sound as silly as counting all the way up to seven. ---
**Author:** ![omni-not](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8dc957/32.png) [@omni-not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omni-not)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/23 "2003-07-05T15:02:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Biffy the Elephant Shrew \* > \*\*doesn’t sound as silly as counting all the way up to seven. \*\* LOL. There _would_ be the risk of boring your audience even before you got started with the tune, especially if you had several of those puppies in your repertoire.😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/24 "2003-07-05T15:24:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Biffy the Elephant Shrew \* > \*\*\*_sleestak \*\* wrote: > The down beat is usually on 2 and 4. Think one TWO three FOUR. The simplest way to figure it out is to listen for the snare. > \* > The downbeat is, by definition, the “one.” You’re thinking of a **backbeat**._ Just to clarify, a bar of four beats consists of _downbeat, upbeat, downbeat, upbeat_, the accents “classically” falling on the downbeats; an accented upbeat (a common occurrence in rock music) can be called a _backbeat_. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/25 "2003-07-05T15:43:07Z")
Counting to seven would probably also be bad because “seven” is two syllables. Something would surely get thrown off. **Quasimodem** probably knows there’s also a count-off before the Allmans play _Statesboro Blues_ on the **Fillmore East** album, and in fact, Gregg does that count-off every time they play the song. Even though they probably know the time by now. 😉 He does a variant I’m surprised I haven’t seen discussed here - “a-one, two, a-one two three four-” bang. I guess this is done to give the musicians more time to get used to the beat? And hey, in the trivia vein, there’s a fun argument over a count-off in the Beatles movie _Yellow Submarine_. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/26 "2003-07-05T16:02:43Z")
To confirm, yes, they’re setting the speed (tempo) of the song. The time signature is the reference of beats-per-measure, and it doesn’t matter what you count off the song with, it doesn’t change the structure of the rhythm, since the song’s already been written. And to amplify upon what’s been said, yes, most radio-ready stuff is 4/4, because … well, because it’s got a beat and you can dance to it. In straight four-four, a quarter note can be subdivided into two exactly equal eighth notes. (This would be obvious to a mathematician, but nobody said musicians had to be able to add.) You will occasionally hear a band play a song in 12/8, also called a swing tempo, or a blues beat. “My Big Ten Inch” by Aerosmith might be an example you know, or “In The Mood” by the Glenn Miller Orchestra, or “Black Velvet” by Alannah Myles. The 12/8 time signature has four beats consisting of three eighth triplets, or twelve eighth notes per measure (or four dotted quarter notes. Musical math again). It’s got a beat like DUM daDUM daDUM daDUM da, etc.\* You will often hear 12/8 counted off as a-ONE, a-TWO, a-one-two-three-four, or ONE-and-a-TWO-and-a-THREE-and-a-FOUR-and-a. I can think of any recorded examples offhand. Not to be confused with a shuffle beat, which I’ve seen often written as 4/4 and an apologetic note at the start of the song. I can’t think of an example of someone counting off the _Mission Impossible_ or _Hallowe’en_ themes, which are in 10/8, but one might be ONE-two-three ONE-two-three ONE-two. I also can’t think of an example count-off of 5/4, like Sting’s “Seven Days” from _Ten Summoner’s Tales_; or 15/8, such as the aforementioned “Take Five”, or such as “Everything’s All Right” in _Jesus Christ Superstar._ (Following the 12/8 rule, 15/8 is a swing-five, or five eighth triplets.) Also, consider 9/8, or swing waltz, in “My Favorite Things,” from _The Sound of Music._ A common example of 6/8 is not springing to mind, and I have no idea how they count the weird stuff, like Pink Floyd’s “Money” in 7/4. Some unorthodox count-ins you can hear for yourself: On the _Eagles Live_ album, circa 1985, you can hear the band count off four a waltz, “Take It To The Limit”: one-two-three, two-two-three. You will also hear Billy Joel on _52nd Street_ count one, two, and-our-hands-are-set before the song “52nd Street.” You will also hear Prince, on the Batman soundtrack, count w-x-y-z. Of course, if you listen to Spinal Tap’s _Break Like The Wind_ album, at the end of “The Sun Never Sweats” (I think?), there is a one-bar hold and a final hit. That is, the band holds one last penultimate chord for four beats and everyone crashes in at the same time. One guitarist is counting two-three-four and the other one is counting three-four-five, yet they manage to hit the right beat together anyway. (Nobody said Nigel Tufnel count count, right? That’s the dummer’s job. 🙂 ) Just a few examples that the musicians aren’t always counting numbers; they could say anything at all, as long as it was in tempo, on the beat and in the right rhythm structure. FISH In this example, the etc. is considered the “downbeat,” which is Greek for “telling a joke with a straight face.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![omni-not](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8dc957/32.png) [@omni-not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omni-not)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/27 "2003-07-05T16:48:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fish \* > **a-ONE, a-TWO, a-one-two-three-four, or ONE-and-a-TWO-and-a-THREE-and-a-FOUR-and-a.** Ahhhhhhh yes. Visions of Lawrence Welk swinging his baton gingerly are dancing in my head right now. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fish \* > **One guitarist is counting two-three-four and the other one is counting three-four-five, yet they manage to hit the right beat together anyway. (Nobody said Nigel Tufnel count count, right? That’s the dummer’s job. 🙂 )** Dummer than who, **fish**?😃 ---
**Author:** ![Jpeg\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/4bbf92/32.png) [@Jpeg\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jpeg_Jones)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/28 "2003-07-05T17:23:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Great Unwashed \* > **Just to clarify, a bar of four beats consists of _downbeat, upbeat, downbeat, upbeat_** Sorry, no. In classical music, “downbeat” means one thing and one thing only: The first beat of a bar. Sure, you might feel an accent on beat 3 too, but you would never call that a downbeat too. ---
**Author:** ![NoCoolUserName](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5fc32e/32.png) [@NoCoolUserName](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoCoolUserName)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/29 "2003-07-05T17:35:40Z")
Often the drummer just bangs his sticks together to get everyone going, the band (one hopes) knows how many bangs there will be. So, for example, on Take Five, where the 5 beats are broken up 3 and then 2, the drummer might just click his sticks twice and everyone would start. The count for the reprise of Sgt. Pepper is obviously not to set the tempo, since the drums are already playing. A good band (and they were) would just nod at each other and start playing, so here the reason for the count is to draw in the audience. It has no particular musical function. Ted Nugent uses the title of a song as the count-off “Wang Dang Sweet Poontang” and the band starts. Chuck Berry did this quite often as well. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/30 "2003-07-05T17:52:20Z")
Dummer than who, **omni-not**? 🙂 From the interview of Spinal Tap drummer Mick Shrimpton in _This is Spinal Tap_ Interviewer: If you couldn’t be a rock ‘n’ roll star, what would you do? Shrimpton: As long as there was still the sex and drugs, I could do without the rock ‘n’ roll. From the A to Zed of Spinal Tap at [Spinal Tap A to Zed, by Chip Rowe](http://spinaltapfan.com/atozed/index.html) under **Drummers** > [@](#): > > Tap has a notorious reputation for changing drummers, usually after sudden deaths. Derek: “When we realized it was a curse, we changed out attitude.” (RL) David: “Most of them died peacefully in their sleep, while playing.” Derek: “For drummers, it’s a bit of an extreme sport, to play with us.” (NPR) In 1991, before its triumphant return to the road to support “Break Like the Wind,” Tap placed a classified ad in Daily Variety and the Hollywood Reporter announcing auditions: “Drummer died, need new one. Must have no immediate family. Auditions October 31 L.A. Coliseum. RSVP.” Four hundred drummers phoned about the ad and 50 auditioned, including Mickey Dolenz of the Monkees, Mick Fleetwood (wearing a fire-retardant suit), Debbie Peterson of the Bangles, Stephen Perkins of Jane’s Addiction and Gina Schock of the Go-Gos. (MST; TS) As to why Ric Shrimpton won the seat rather than Fleetwood, David explained, “Mick showed fear. You can’t have that.” (RL). Love that Spinal Tap. 🙂 FISH ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/31 "2003-07-05T18:57:38Z")
On the John Lennon Plastic Ono Band album _Live Peace in Toronto_, Klaus Voorman, Lennon’s old pal from Hamburg, played bass. You can hear him counting off at the beginning of “Give Peace a Chance”: _EIN! … ZWEI! … EIN ZWEI DREI VIER!_ ---
**Author:** ![omni-not](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8dc957/32.png) [@omni-not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omni-not)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/32 "2003-07-05T19:52:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jomo Mojo \* > \*\*On the John Lennon Plastic Ono Band album _Live Peace in Toronto_, Klaus Voorman, Lennon’s old pal from Hamburg, played bass. You can hear him counting off at the beginning of “Give Peace a Chance”: > _EIN! … ZWEI! … EIN ZWEI DREI VIER!_ \*\* Voorman, eh? Hmmm. I had always thought it was Dr. Winston O’Boogie himself goofing off. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/33 "2003-07-05T22:48:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by omni-not \* > \*\*Voorman, eh? Hmmm. I had always thought it was Dr. Winston O’Boogie himself goofing off. \*\* I believe you’re right. And let’s not forget Domingo “Sam the Sham” Samudio’s count-off on the immortal “Wooly Bully”: _“UNO! … DOS! … ONE, TWO, TRES, CUATRO!!!”_ ---
**Author:** ![ltfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@ltfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ltfire)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/34 "2003-07-05T23:52:45Z")
ONE TWO TRES QUATRO Sam the Sham sorry, that just came to me… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![omni-not](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8dc957/32.png) [@omni-not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omni-not)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/35 "2003-07-05T23:58:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Biffy the Elephant Shrew \* > \*\*I believe you’re right. And let’s not forget Domingo “Sam the Sham” Samudio’s count-off on the immortal “Wooly Bully”: _“UNO! … DOS! … ONE, TWO, TRES, CUATRO!!!”_ \*\* I hear ya. Another classic! ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/36 "2003-07-06T05:09:29Z")
**Fish** , wait a minute. Shrimpton is IN the movie, dies, and yet is selected for the reunion tour over people like Mick Fleetwood? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Kentzel-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/37 "2003-07-06T05:36:03Z")
Since this is about music, I’ll move it to Cafe Society and let the discussion continue over there. Off to Cafe Society. **DrMatrix** - GQ Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/38 "2003-07-06T05:37:06Z")
No, no, Mick Shrimpton dies and is replaced by Jo Mama. **Ric** Shrimpton is selected as the new drummer. I’ve no idea why. FISH ---
**Author:** ![omni-not](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8dc957/32.png) [@omni-not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omni-not)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/39 "2003-07-06T14:31:37Z")
Looks like the OP has taken on a tangent…😉 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320/40 "2003-07-06T16:23:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jpeg Jones \* > \*\*Sorry, no. In classical music, “downbeat” means one thing and one thing only: The first beat of a bar. Sure, you might feel an accent on beat 3 too, but you would never call that a downbeat too. \*\* Yes, my bad, good catch. But you agree with the thrust of the post that a _backbeat_ is a stressed _upbeat_ usually occuring on beats 2 and 4 of a 4/4 measure? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-and-the-four-count-heads-up/186320.md?page=3)