# Musicians is it unusual for a modern recording to be out of tune? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 20, 2017, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-is-it-unusual-for-a-modern-recording-to-be-out-of-tune/804951 "2017-12-20T22:11:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-is-it-unusual-for-a-modern-recording-to-be-out-of-tune/804951/1 "2017-12-20T22:11:19Z")
I’ve read the old music on tape from the 1950’s an 60’s would sometimes get out of tune. The original tape machine’s speed might have been off, worn pinch rollers, warped reels, or even the tape stretching. I’m puzzled why Wham’s Last Christmas is out of tune? I noticed it was Sharp when I started rehearsing the song. Talked with friends and they checked it with their keyboards. It wants to be in D flat. That’s the key I feel. But, it’s between thirty and fifty cents sharp. It’s off a lot. It’s much too flat to be in D. Seems odd, since it’s played on digital keyboards and synth. The pitch should be right on the money. I’ve had trouble dialing in the correction. I used -35 cents and that’s good enough to rehearse. The keyboard still sounds a little sharp to me. If I get the keyboards right then the vocal is off. Any ideas on what went wrong during production? [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/MZVY-pGDsN4/hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEmCOADEOgC8quKqQMa8AEB-AH-BIAC4AOKAgwIABABGGUgZShlMA8=&rs=AOn4CLBd-1PCNf3IICJJxRZO_AtfuntbLg "Wham - Last Christmas (with lyrics :D)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZVY-pGDsN4) ---
**Author:** ![DooWahDiddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@DooWahDiddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooWahDiddy)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-is-it-unusual-for-a-modern-recording-to-be-out-of-tune/804951/2 "2017-12-20T22:16:57Z")
Maybe they changed the tempo? It’s an old enough song they might not have been able to do that without changing pitch. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-is-it-unusual-for-a-modern-recording-to-be-out-of-tune/804951/3 "2017-12-20T22:28:33Z")
I even downloaded a couple versions. I thought maybe the first one had been altered. Got the same result. It’s in D flat and noticably sharp. I haven’t tried the YouTube vid but it should be the same. I play it in C with a Capo on the first fret. I use my keyboard to learn the melody. ---
**Author:** ![DooWahDiddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@DooWahDiddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooWahDiddy)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-is-it-unusual-for-a-modern-recording-to-be-out-of-tune/804951/4 "2017-12-20T22:37:42Z")
No, I mean maybe they changed the tempo in the studio, before they released it. Billy Joel did the same thing with “Root Beer Rag”, a little-known instrumental. To get all the notes right, he and the band played it a bit slower, then they sped up the tape. The result is that it lies somewhere between C and Db, even though the sheet music is in C (and rightfully so, as it would be damn near impossible to play it in Db). ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-is-it-unusual-for-a-modern-recording-to-be-out-of-tune/804951/5 "2017-12-20T22:46:00Z")
That may be it. George Michael is singing pretty high already and they may have sped it up. Put his voice way up there. He’s known for his high voice. It’s almost to high for me, even in head voice. That capo has to come off. 😉 I may just make it through to the end. That’s a neat trick with Root Beer Rag. Play it slow and speed up in production. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-is-it-unusual-for-a-modern-recording-to-be-out-of-tune/804951/6 "2017-12-21T00:38:31Z")
> [@DooWahDiddy](#): > > No, I mean maybe they changed the tempo in the studio, before they released it. Billy Joel did the same thing with “Root Beer Rag”, a little-known instrumental. To get all the notes right, he and the band played it a bit slower, then they sped up the tape. The result is that it lies somewhere between C and Db, even though the sheet music is in C (and rightfully so, as it would be damn near impossible to play it in Db). Another example of changes in tempo done during production: The final Beatles’ “Strawberry Fields Forever” is spliced together from two different takes, which were recorded at different speeds (and neither part of the final song is at the tempo at which it was recorded). Lennon’s voice is noticeably higher in the second half of the song than in the first, as, in order to accomplish the edit, producer George Martin and engineer Geoff Emerick sped up the take used in the first half of the song, and slowed down the take used for the second half. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-is-it-unusual-for-a-modern-recording-to-be-out-of-tune/804951/7 "2017-12-21T01:57:53Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’ve read the old music on tape from the 1950’s an 60’s would sometimes get out of tune. The original tape machine’s speed might have been off, worn pinch rollers, warped reels, or even the tape stretching. > > I’m puzzled why Wham’s Last Christmas is out of tune? I noticed it was Sharp when I started rehearsing the song. Talked with friends and they checked it with their keyboards. > > It wants to be in D flat. That’s the key I feel. But, it’s between thirty and fifty cents sharp. > > It’s off a lot. It’s much too flat to be in D. > > Seems odd, since it’s played on digital keyboards and synth. The pitch should be right on the money. > > I’ve had trouble dialing in the correction. I used -35 cents and that’s good enough to rehearse. The keyboard still sounds a little sharp to me. If I get the keyboards right then the vocal is off. > > Any ideas on what went wrong during production? > > [https://youtu.be/MZVY-pGDsN4](https://youtu.be/MZVY-pGDsN4) Sounds like post production to me. I don’t check songs for pitch but I thought that speeds could be altered for effect on records, and often were, especially to make someone sound younger. I didn’t think producers tried to pitch their recordings exactly. ---
**Author:** ![zombywoof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/9e8a1a/32.png) [@zombywoof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zombywoof)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-is-it-unusual-for-a-modern-recording-to-be-out-of-tune/804951/8 "2017-12-21T02:19:28Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Seems odd, since it’s played on digital keyboards and synth. When you mentioned a “modern” recording, I didn’t think you would be talking about one that’s over 30 years old! Wham mostly used Roland **analog** synths - I don’t know what might have been going on in that particular recording, but FWIW I know analog synths can “drift” in pitch due to temperature and other factors. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-is-it-unusual-for-a-modern-recording-to-be-out-of-tune/804951/9 "2017-12-21T03:55:00Z")
I meant modern compared to Peter Paul and Mary or the Kingston Trio. For me the 80’s are quite modern. Macs had sound cards and the first DAW’s were coming out. Most recordings are pretty close to standard pitch. Music students learn by playing along with records. It’s the closest experience you can get before playing in a band. Some recordings are a few cents off standard pitch. This one is close to a half a semi tone off. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-is-it-unusual-for-a-modern-recording-to-be-out-of-tune/804951/10 "2017-12-21T04:38:44Z")
[This recording](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8gmARGvPlI) appears to be in [the key of D](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Pb3mu9e2c), but I have no idea how likely it is for that recording to be playing the same pitches as the original, and I have no idea how accurate to expect that D to be at the second link. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-is-it-unusual-for-a-modern-recording-to-be-out-of-tune/804951/11 "2017-12-21T04:43:54Z")
What the heck is it about George Michael by the way? I am so straight. So so straight. And I don’t even judge him to be an attractive man. Yet when he looks straight into the camera _damned if my heart doesn’t flutter_ what is this?? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-is-it-unusual-for-a-modern-recording-to-be-out-of-tune/804951/12 "2017-12-21T05:02:56Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > [This recording](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8gmARGvPlI) appears to be in [the key of D](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Pb3mu9e2c), but I have no idea how likely it is for that recording to be playing the same pitches as the original, and I have no idea how accurate to expect that D to be at the second link. That recording and the one linked to by the OP sound like they’re exactly the same to me. Playing the D of the second link at the same time as the song you linked to shows the D to be sharp in relation to the song. To me, it sounds like the key of D about 20 cents flat. (Just eye-balling or, rather, ear-balling it by using an online tone generator. I’m judging the tonic to be somewhere around 580 Hz, which is a slightly flat D). ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-is-it-unusual-for-a-modern-recording-to-be-out-of-tune/804951/13 "2017-12-21T05:09:10Z")
[This person claims D and about 15 cents flat.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nA-7nuHZr4) So same general ballpark I’m coming up with, though I haven’t tried playing along with the recording yet. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-is-it-unusual-for-a-modern-recording-to-be-out-of-tune/804951/14 "2017-12-21T05:20:47Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > That recording and the one linked to by the OP sound like they’re exactly the same to me. Playing the D of the second link at the same time as the song you linked to shows the D to be sharp in relation to the song. To me, it sounds like the key of D about 20 cents flat. (Just eye-balling or, rather, ear-balling it by using an online tone generator. I’m judging the tonic to be somewhere around 580 Hz, which is a slightly flat D). Totally agree it’s slightly sharp. I do think it’s definitely closer to D than D flat though. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-is-it-unusual-for-a-modern-recording-to-be-out-of-tune/804951/15 "2017-12-21T05:31:36Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Totally agree it’s slightly sharp. I do think it’s definitely closer to D than D flat though. Yes, we agree. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-is-it-unusual-for-a-modern-recording-to-be-out-of-tune/804951/16 "2017-12-21T06:03:24Z")
D is an easier key to play. The song gets really high. Shifting from D flat to D would put it beyond my range. I plan to sing it in C. George might have reached the high notes in D. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-is-it-unusual-for-a-modern-recording-to-be-out-of-tune/804951/17 "2017-12-21T08:18:24Z")
I Hear You Knocking by Smiley Lewis was originally released at the wrong speed, a semitone sharp. [Here’s the fast (sharp) version.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciAS1h2i72Y) [Here it is at the correct speed.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFdJL4C20Xg) In the 78 RPM era there were no standards for recording speeds until 1925, when they settled on 78.26 RPM for records made in places with 60 Hz current (e.g. the U.S.), and 77.92 RPM for records made in places with 50 Hz current (e.g. the U.K.) Each label had its own speed until then (Victor recorded at 76.59 and Columbia at 80), but even after 1925 the recording speeds weren’t tightly controlled. Decca tended to record fast, with speeds as high as 81.5 RPM well into the 1930s. One of the challenges of remastering a 78 RPM record is figuring out the correct playback speed. It helps to have a good ear for pitch and to know what keys were commonly used in different types of music. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-is-it-unusual-for-a-modern-recording-to-be-out-of-tune/804951/18 "2017-12-21T09:22:47Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Another example of changes in tempo done during production: > > The final Beatles’ “Strawberry Fields Forever” is spliced together from two different takes, which were recorded at different speeds (and neither part of the final song is at the tempo at which it was recorded). Lennon’s voice is noticeably higher in the second half of the song than in the first, as, in order to accomplish the edit, producer George Martin and engineer Geoff Emerick sped up the take used in the first half of the song, and slowed down the take used for the second half. I think you mean to say Lennon’s voice is considerably lower in the second half of the song, when the tape is slowed down. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-is-it-unusual-for-a-modern-recording-to-be-out-of-tune/804951/19 "2017-12-21T15:09:48Z")
Until you said Wham and keyboards, I was going to note that (some) rock/blues guitarists sometimes tune their instruments lower than standard (liking the tone better with less tension on the strings). Typically, most would aim for exactly half a step flat, but could easily be less, either because of a lack of modern electronic tuners, or the musician just went with their feeling. Seems unlikely that’s what was going on with a Wham recording, though key of D would be a natural rock/blues guitar key. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-is-it-unusual-for-a-modern-recording-to-be-out-of-tune/804951/20 "2017-12-21T15:20:12Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Sounds like post production to me. I don’t check songs for pitch but I thought that speeds could be altered for effect on records, and often were, especially to make someone sound younger. That’s precisely what Paul McCartney chose to do on “When I’m Sixty-Four,” recorded in his mid-twenties but made to sound more like his age when he composed it (mid-teens). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-is-it-unusual-for-a-modern-recording-to-be-out-of-tune/804951.md?page=2)