# Musicians - questions about transposing music **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 7, 2018, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046 "2018-01-07T15:11:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/41 "2018-01-08T00:25:21Z")
I have done it (transposed music I was learning) but I think I’m unusual as piano players go: I can technically (sort of) read music but “deciphering” is probably a more accurate term when it’s piano music, with 4, 5, 7, or 8 keys being simulplayed by different fingers. (I can read music without the quotation marks around “read” when it’s vocal or for a wind instrument — one damn tone at a time). Anyway, I wanted to learn Sibelius’ “Romance” which is written in the hideous key of A flat major. I don’t like flats keys. I stared at it for a little while and realized that if I ignored the key signature and pretended it was in D, all I had to do was treat naturals as sharps, flats as naturals, and go for it. That’s still how I play it. ---
**Author:** ![DooWahDiddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@DooWahDiddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooWahDiddy)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/42 "2018-01-08T00:26:46Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > I think hearing the diffference between two keys in casual listening, with no vocal cues, with a time gap in between, would take perfect pitch. Of course it wouldn’t. You are so unbelievably wrong in this thread it’s almost comical. Almost. ---
**Author:** ![DooWahDiddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@DooWahDiddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooWahDiddy)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/43 "2018-01-08T00:37:14Z")
Look, let’s make it simple, okay? Go [here](https://soundcloud.com/brandonsturiale/fur-elise/s-W48Pz) and listen to this version of Fur Elise I just played. You’ve already said you don’t have perfect pitch, and that’s fine, neither do I. But are you honestly telling me something doesn’t seem “off” about it? That you can’t tell a difference between this and the version you’ve heard a thousand times before? I could play it for my wife, who can’t hold a tune in a bucket, and even she could tell me something sounded different. She may not have the musical vocabulary to say _why_, or even care, but she could tell it was different, just as I’m sure you can. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/44 "2018-01-08T00:40:47Z")
> [@DooWahDiddy](#): > > Linus and Lucy is supposed to be in A flat. > > And the thing is, I never called them “personalities”. That’s **drad dog** ’s bizarre method of trying to win this argument, to create things I never said and then drown them in a sea of rhetoric. > > All I ever said, and continue to stand by and will until the day I die, is that different keys have different sounds. I wouldn’t write a rock ‘n’ roll tune in D flat, and it doesn’t have anything to do with the playability; to me, D flat sounds like a ballad key. It’s heavy, with a somber tone to it, a sad quality. And C to me \*does \* sound innocent and childlike, as mentioned before. Why do you think “Music Box Dancer” and “Tiny Dancer” are in C? > > I haven’t said half the things he’s claiming I said, and I’m trying to stick to the OP as much as possible. I assume **mmm** is talking about current music, not this Tempered Clavier bullshit, and I’m answering his question by saying yes, it is cheating, and yes, it is common. My goodness. Read your argument again. You’re right because you feel you are right. Playing a rock tune in D flat is the same as in D. My goodness indeed. I couldn’t disagree more with your advice. In modern music they change keys all the time. It’s classical where they name the pieces after the keys. A guitarist can change keys by moving his hand. Do you think he doesn’t do it because it’s cheating or it would change the song? He does it all night long. I think the OP needed to fill in some detail: What are you playing, who for, to what goal? Cheating doesn’t make sense in any of these contexts. If you have a teacher who doesn’t want you to do something, then it would be cheating. The Beatles basically were cheating when they made their records, at every chance they got. They used any trick to make the end product great. George Martin played a slowed down solo in In My Life. I have never heard anyone mention cheating as a musician before this thread. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/45 "2018-01-08T00:45:25Z")
> [@DooWahDiddy](#): > > Of course it wouldn’t. You are so unbelievably wrong in this thread it’s almost comical. Almost. This is the perfect opportunity to swoop in with some of those reams of data, while I’m vulnerable. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/46 "2018-01-08T00:50:09Z")
> [@DooWahDiddy](#): > > Linus and Lucy is supposed to be in A flat. > > And the thing is, I never called them “personalities”. That’s **drad dog** ’s bizarre method of trying to win this argument, to create things I never said and then drown them in a sea of rhetoric. > > All I ever said, and continue to stand by and will until the day I die, is that different keys have different sounds. I wouldn’t write a rock ‘n’ roll tune in D flat, and it doesn’t have anything to do with the playability; to me, D flat sounds like a ballad key. It’s heavy, with a somber tone to it, a sad quality. And C to me \*does \* sound innocent and childlike, as mentioned before. Why do you think “Music Box Dancer” and “Tiny Dancer” are in C? > > I haven’t said half the things he’s claiming I said, and I’m trying to stick to the OP as much as possible. I assume **mmm** is talking about current music, not this Tempered Clavier bullshit, and I’m answering his question by saying yes, it is cheating, and yes, it is common. My goodness. You didn’t say “personalities” but you said “Somber” “innocent” “Childlike” “sad” So you want to anthropomorphize pitch frequencies but not give them personalities? A rose by any other name. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/47 "2018-01-08T01:15:27Z")
> [@DooWahDiddy](#): > > All I ever said, and continue to stand by and will until the day I die, is that different keys have different sounds. I wouldn’t write a rock ‘n’ roll tune in D flat, and it doesn’t have anything to do with the playability; to me, D flat sounds like a ballad key. It’s heavy, with a somber tone to it, a sad quality. And C to me \*does \* sound innocent and childlike, as mentioned before. Why do you think “Music Box Dancer” and “Tiny Dancer” are in C? OK, to me they don’t. D flat sounds as much a ballad key as C to me. Do you by any chance have perfect pitch? (ETA: Oh, wait, I see you’ve said you don’t.) That may have something to do with it. Because for the life of me, if you played Tiny Dancer in B or D flat, there’s no possible way I would know without a reference pitch. ETA2: As for the Fur Elise – I’m not confident I would notice the key difference without being primed to expect it. How far off is it? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/48 "2018-01-08T01:32:38Z")
> [@DooWahDiddy](#): > > Why do you think “Music Box Dancer” and “Tiny Dancer” are in C? Linus and Lucy is “childlike” and it’s in A flat. The Merry Farmer (Schumann) is in F, and is definitely fun and childlike. “Jump” (Van Halen) is in C, but doesn’t sound “childlike” to me. “Do You Know What It Means to Miss New Orleans” is also in C, and also doesn’t strike me as “childlike.” The only “childlike” association I have with the key of C is that it’s the first key you learn (generally) when you sit down to play the piano. ---
**Author:** ![zombywoof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/9e8a1a/32.png) [@zombywoof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zombywoof)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/49 "2018-01-08T01:36:03Z")
Nigel Tufnel: It’s part of a trilogy, a musical trilogy I’m working on in D minor which is the saddest of all keys, I find. People weep instantly when they hear it, and I don’t know why. Marty DiBergi: It’s very nice. Nigel Tufnel: You know, just simple lines intertwining, you know, very much like - I’m really influenced by Mozart and Bach, and it’s sort of in between those, really. It’s like a Mach piece, really. It’s sort of… Marty DiBergi: What do you call this? Nigel Tufnel: Well, this piece is called “Lick My Love Pump”. ---
**Author:** ![zombywoof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/9e8a1a/32.png) [@zombywoof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zombywoof)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/50 "2018-01-08T01:46:28Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > My point is whether transposing for the convenience of making a song easier to play is common, and whether it is considered cheating by anyone on any level Transposing is very common, probably most often to bring a song into a singer’s range, but also perhaps to make it easier to play on a given instrument (the ones that I’m familiar with are easier to play in some keys than others) - you might hear people jokingly refer to, say, the use of a guitar capo as “cheating”, but I’d dismiss the opinion of anyone who took that idea seriously. ---
**Author:** ![DooWahDiddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@DooWahDiddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooWahDiddy)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/51 "2018-01-08T01:58:22Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > This is the perfect opportunity to swoop in with some of those reams of data, while I’m vulnerable. I could point you in a million directions where people describe the differences between how keys “feel”, and you would rebuff that with “archaic and thin”. Why waste the time? And I never gave anyone “advice”. Your grasp on the English language is causing confusion and is pretty infuriating. I’m very sorry you can’t tell the difference between keys, just like I would be sorry for someone who couldn’t see different colors or taste different spices. Keep playing all your songs in A, I’m sure your audience appreciates it. As for me, I’m off to continue making a living as a musician. Bye. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/52 "2018-01-08T02:24:26Z")
> [@DooWahDiddy](#): > > I could point you in a million directions where people describe the differences between how keys “feel”. Thing is, these associations will vary from person to person, I would think. I mean, yes, I do have certain associations with certain keys due to what songs I’m familiar with, but if you detuned my piano a half step, I wouldn’t be the wiser. For me, ballads are E-flat, G, and C. Aggressive songs are E, A, and D. (Probably because of my associations with rock.) Childishness is F and perhaps A flat. The “saddest” key is C sharp minor. The “happiest” key is F mixolydian. All D flat means to me is Andrew Lloyd Webber. But I would not expect any of these feelings to be universal, and they more have to do with my experience with music in those keys and how they feel under my fingers on a piano than they do any real difference in feeling between the keys. Like I said, I don’t have perfect pitch, so if you detuned my piano (or left my electric keyboard in a transposed setting) I wouldn’t be the wiser (so long as it’s in the general ballpark and not like a fifth off, although I’ve “figured out” songs from memory before only to find out that my memory was as much as a fourth off.) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/53 "2018-01-08T02:47:56Z")
> [@DooWahDiddy](#): > > Of course it wouldn’t. You are so unbelievably wrong in this thread it’s almost comical. Almost. Being able to hear the difference between two different keys, in equal temperament, with a time gap in between is the _definition_ of perfect pitch. Different keys used to have qualitative differences between them, back before equal temperament. But nowadays, equal temperament is the standard, and so those differences are gone, at least for instruments like the piano where each note is tuned independently. You might still find qualitative differences between keys for, say, a brass instrument, which cannot be equal-tempered. But even then, you could make a different brass instrument, in a slightly larger scale, where the key of B flat has exactly the same qualities as your original instrument did in C. ---
**Author:** ![gkster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gkster/32/14107_2.png) [@gkster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gkster)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/54 "2018-01-08T03:37:38Z")
From post 10, I left out the link to the page with lots of information and speculation on characteristics of musical keys [http://biteyourownelbow.com/keychar.htm](http://biteyourownelbow.com/keychar.htm) Here are some more excerpts from that page From Tom Douglas Jones, The Art of Light & Color, 1972: p. 102: Beethoven is said to have called B minor the black key. Schubert likened E minor “unto a maiden robed in white with a rose-red bow on her breast.” One Russion composer said, “Rimsky-Korsakoff and many of us in Russia have felt the connection between colors and sonorities. Surely for everybody sunlight is C major and cold colors are minors. And F-sharp is decidedly strawberry red!” Of his subtle compositions Debussy wrote: “I realized that music is very delicate, and it takes, therefore, the soul at its softest fluttering to catch these violet rays of emotion.” p. 103: Dr. D.S. Myers, a psychologist who talked with Scriabin, said, Scriabin’s attention was first seriously drawn to his colored hearing owing to an experience at a concert in Paris, where sitting next to his fellow countryman and composer Rimsky-Korsakoff, he remarked that the piece to which they were listening (in D major) seemed to him yellow; whereupon his neighbor replied that to him, too, the color seemed golden. Scriabin has since compared with his compatriot and with other musicians the color effects of other keys, especially B, C major, and F-sharp major, and believes a general agreement to exist in this respect. He admits, however, that whereas to him the key of F-sharp major appears violet, to Rimsky-Korsakoff it appears green; but this derivation he attributed to an accidental association with the color of leaves and grass arising from the frequent use of this key for pastoral music. He allows that there is some disagreement as to the color effect of the key of G major. Nevertheless, as is so universally the case with the subjects of synesthesia, he believes that the particular colors which he obtains must be shared by all endowed with colored hearing." ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/55 "2018-01-08T05:01:19Z")
> [@DooWahDiddy](#): > > Yes, and yes. It is common, for beginners. But it is also considered cheating by lots of people on lots of levels, _if_ you are transposing only for the sake of playability. And: “and I’m answering his question by saying yes, it is cheating, and yes, it is common. My goodness.” Yes and yes. This is what I called advice. Should we call it something else? We got anything besides definitions to discuss? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/56 "2018-01-08T05:12:40Z")
> [@DooWahDiddy](#): > > I could point you in a million directions where people describe the differences between how keys “feel”, and you would rebuff that with “archaic and thin”. Why waste the time? > > And I never gave anyone “advice”. Your grasp on the English language is causing confusion and is pretty infuriating. I’m very sorry you can’t tell the difference between keys, just like I would be sorry for someone who couldn’t see different colors or taste different spices. Keep playing all your songs in A, I’m sure your audience appreciates it. As for me, I’m off to continue making a living as a musician. Bye. A million directions is no direction at all. (That’s mine, btw. Don’t knock it off.) You are not speaking from any wisdom or even sense about the subject but that’s ok too. Prognosis isn’t good for career. Assigning personality to pitches is pretty much on the level of phrenology or throwing bones. Things that are much more meaningful: Freudian theory, Astrology, tai bo, tai chi etc. What happens if there are a million people with a million ways of hearing your chord, that you thought meant something? “Lots of people at lots of levels” think it’s cheating to do something? Can you cite for that? ---
**Author:** ![zombywoof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/9e8a1a/32.png) [@zombywoof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zombywoof)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/57 "2018-01-08T05:28:57Z")
Of course, all keys are referenced to an arbitrary baseline pitch, which has changed over the years (currently, most often but not always, A4=440 Hz) - I wonder what someone who claims to find a difference in “feel” between the same piece played in, say, C and Db would think of the same piece tuned with the tonic at the halfway point between the two? Does it evoke emotions that are between the two, or yet another set of feelings? ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/58 "2018-01-08T05:58:13Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > And: > “and I’m answering his question by saying yes, it is cheating, and yes, it is common. My goodness.” > > Yes and yes. This is what I called advice. Should we call it something else? We got anything besides definitions to discuss? I would hardly regard using a capo as cheating. If anything, it’s like using all the tools in your utility belt. Particularly with respect to open or drone strings, a capo transposition can give a song exactly the sonority it needs. Take “Scarborough Fair” or “Hotel California” for example, both capoed at the 7th fret. You can’t get that particular sonority anywhere else on the fretboard, and it’s just the right placement for the singer’s voice. Not everyone’s voice, mind you, but it’s perfect for Paul, Art and Don. ---
**Author:** ![DooWahDiddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@DooWahDiddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooWahDiddy)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/59 "2018-01-08T05:59:07Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > A million directions is no direction at all. (That’s mine, btw. Don’t knock it off.) You’re not half as clever as you think you are. > [@](#): > > You are not speaking from any wisdom or even sense about the subject but that’s ok too. Prognosis isn’t good for career. Lolllllll, I guess that’s why I’ve made a living as a Broadway pianist for 14 years, huh? > [@](#): > > “Lots of people at lots of levels” think it’s cheating to do something? Can you cite for that? See, here on planet Earth, when your job is to play piano for 8 hours while people come in one by one, and you have 10 seconds to look at their music before you have to play it for their audition, it’s generally frowned upon to say, “Wait, I’m sorry. I only play in A. Do you have something in that key?” Or to get hired for a show and not be able to play half the score because it’s not in a key you like. I’m not denigrating people learning to play an instrument; I think anybody who makes music is doing a fantastic thing. No, I’m denigrating you personally, because you think you’ve elevated yourself to some higher plane than the rest of us, when really you’re just an amateur who can only play in one key. Keep working away at it and maybe you’ll get better. In the meantime I’m putting you on my ignore list, because I have to go see how many royalties I received because the girl from _The Greatest Showman_ recorded a song I wrote. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/60 "2018-01-08T06:19:53Z")
> [@DooWahDiddy](#): > > You’re not half as clever as you think you are. > > Lolllllll, I guess that’s why I’ve made a living as a Broadway pianist for 14 years, huh? > > See, here on planet Earth, when your job is to play piano for 8 hours while people come in one by one, and you have 10 seconds to look at their music before you have to play it for their audition, it’s generally frowned upon to say, “Wait, I’m sorry. I only play in A. Do you have something in that key?” Or to get hired for a show and not be able to play half the score because it’s not in a key you like. > > I’m not denigrating people learning to play an instrument; I think anybody who makes music is doing a fantastic thing. No, I’m denigrating you personally, because you think you’ve elevated yourself to some higher plane than the rest of us, when really you’re just an amateur who can only play in one key. > > Keep working away at it and maybe you’ll get better. In the meantime I’m putting you on my ignore list, because I have to go see how many royalties I received because the girl from _The Greatest Showman_ recorded a song I wrote. This is not coherent, I only note, because it’s addressed to me. I think I’m entitled. And you forgot to provide an answer to, well any point that I made in the last day. You just kind of dug in and drilled down. Nothing else to say. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046.md?page=4)