# Musicians - questions about transposing music **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 7, 2018, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046 "2018-01-07T15:11:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/61 "2018-01-08T06:26:50Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > I would hardly regard using a capo as cheating. If anything, it’s like using all the tools in your utility belt. Particularly with respect to open or drone strings, a capo transposition can give a song exactly the sonority it needs. Take “Scarborough Fair” or “Hotel California” for example, both capoed at the 7th fret. You can’t get that particular sonority anywhere else on the fretboard, and it’s just the right placement for the singer’s voice. Not everyone’s voice, mind you, but it’s perfect for Paul, Art and Don. Hope you didn’t think I was anti capo. I use them. A guitarist is more likely to feel that keys are interchangeable because of the capo and also that he can change keys just by making the same exact motions 1 inch from where he just did, and that happens all up the neck. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/62 "2018-01-08T07:48:10Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Hope you didn’t think I was anti capo. I use them. > > A guitarist is more likely to feel that keys are interchangeable because of the capo and also that he can change keys just by making the same exact motions 1 inch from where he just did, and that happens all up the neck. True enough; changing keys on a guitar is relatively easy with a capo. And the same song in a different key with a capo can sound similar to the original, but there are definitely differences in tone depending on where you play the song. The bigger the transposition, the more noticeable, obviously, but even one semitone makes a difference. If you really want to sound like Eddie Van Halen or Stevie Ray Vaughn, you make the extra effort and tune down a half step. The sound, not to mention the change in string tension, is noticeable. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/63 "2018-01-08T13:18:58Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Indeed. The one that “feels” the best under my hands is B… And so thought **Chopin** IIRC, so you’re in excellent company 😉 ! If you look at it, you’ll notice that the pattern of black keys in B is a natural fit for the shape of the hands. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/64 "2018-01-08T15:16:57Z")
> [@zombywoof](#): > > Of course, all keys are referenced to an arbitrary baseline pitch, which has changed over the years (currently, most often but not always, A4=440 Hz) - I wonder what someone who claims to find a difference in “feel” between the same piece played in, say, C and Db would think of the same piece tuned with the tonic at the halfway point between the two? Does it evoke emotions that are between the two, or yet another set of feelings? Yeah, that’s another thing, upward pitch drift over the years, and standardization is only somewhat recent. If you look at tuning forks from the late 18th to early 19th century, the best you could find is that A is generally around 400-450 Hz, which is the range of a full step (from a slightly sharp G to a slightly sharp A). If it truly was a matter of the absolutely frequencies that help determine the “feel” of a key, I would expect there to be similar “key drift” over the years. If C is “childish” now, then a couple hundred years ago, it should have been “Db” that was “childish” and perhaps even “D” when pitch standards had lower As. But this doesn’t seem to be the case to me. C is “childish” because it’s easy to read and play on the piano; that’s it. It’s the key without any accidentals. Now, of course, the physical characteristics and acoustics of a particular instrument does affect how different keys sound and feel to play. But I think this is separate from the absolute pitches of the instrument. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/65 "2018-01-08T15:43:46Z")
I’m with **drad dog** and \*\*pulykamell \*\*on this one, FWIW. Keys don’t have emotional characteristics. In the nineteenth century, it might have SEEMED that way to some, but mainly as a self-fulfilling prophecy: some composers were more likely to write (say) “childish” compositions in C. I say “mostly,” because there was just a _sprinkling_ of truth to the woo then (and, with many acoustic instruments, still today), due to (as has been noted) the characteristics of instruments, especially how certain notes are more likely to be played on an open string or unstopped bore. But this effect is tiny, impossible to generalize over all instruments in a given key (and even within a single instrument, the “feel” of a piece must involve MANY notes, not just the few that are, say, played on open strings), and easily “defeated” through alternative fingerings or tunings. So, basically, woo. Did Mythbusters ever check this out? That would make for an awesome episode! ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/66 "2018-01-08T16:19:18Z")
I’m not going to speak for **DooWahDiddy** , and I don’t know that there’s a coherent argument to be made that specific keys by their nature evoke specific and universal emotional responses. However, it does seem obvious that the difference between C and C# is just as meaningful as the difference between two different colors. I think it would sound silly to argue that changing, say the overall hue or cast (not quite sure of my vocab here) of a painting and then claim that unless you saw the two side-by-side they are fundamentally equal and indistinguishable works of art. Similarly, pitches are different from each other. We have the ability to perceive that difference. Almost by definition a person is going to have a different response to different pitches/keys. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/67 "2018-01-08T16:25:34Z")
Except it’s not, unless you have perfect pitch. I can’t tell the difference between C and D flat without a reference pitch, and I’ve played one instrument or another for about 35 years now. If you can’t see the “color” to begin with, shifting it doesn’t matter so much as the contrasts between the colors remains the same. Like I said, sometimes I tune the guitar down to E flat (or I leave my keyboard in a transposed state because I’m too lazy to transpose properly or I like the feel of a certain key over another). If I come back to the instrument later, I usually will not notice until I try playing along with a recording. I have a guitar sitting right here next to me. I’m playing a few chords on it. I can’t tell you right now whether it’s tuned to E or E flat, or somewhere in between. It all sounds the same to me. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/68 "2018-01-08T16:32:15Z")
(ETA: Huh. Apparently it’s tuned smack dab in the middle between D and E flat, a semitone and a half flat of concert pitch. Still sounds just fine to me, and had no idea until I whipped the tuner out.) ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/69 "2018-01-08T16:47:29Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Except it’s not, unless you have perfect pitch. I can’t tell the difference between C and D flat without a reference pitch, and I’ve played one instrument or another for about 35 years now. If you can’t see the “color” to begin with, shifting it doesn’t matter so much as the contrasts between the colors remains the same. Like I said, sometimes I tune the guitar down to E flat (or I leave my keyboard in a transposed state because I’m too lazy to transpose properly or I like the feel of a certain key over another). If I come back to the instrument later, I usually will not notice until I try playing along with a recording. I have a guitar sitting right here next to me. I’m playing a few chords on it. I can’t tell you right now whether it’s tuned to E or E flat, or somewhere in between. It all sounds the same to me. Somewhere up thread I mentioned that not every person has an equally sensitive palate. I mean, it doesn’t all sound the same to you. If the guitar was tuned down a whole octave, you’d clearly say “hey, this is lower!” Maybe you don’t notice at a half step, but what about a third? A fifth? Maybe I can’t quite tell these two shades of yellow apart without comparing them to each other, but these other two yellows are far enough apart that they’re going to look distinct. But maybe to someone else those first two yellows get recognized/stored as unique colors. It’s all about degree of sensitivity, and just because I can’t tell the difference reliably doesn’t mean that there isn’t one. And I think there are levels of sensitivity between “none” and “perfect pitch”. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/70 "2018-01-08T16:49:53Z")
Right, pulykamell.\*\* Eonwe’s\*\* assertion is true only for LARGE pitch differences (again, unless you happen to have perfect pitch): anyone, without training, will “respond” differently (emotionally, etc.) to the same piece played on the same instrument \*if \*the difference is at least, say, two octaves (“that’s a high-pitched song!” vs. “that’s a low-pitched song!”). For less than that – say, more than one octave but less than two – it takes some training to notice the difference, but most people could do it. But less than an octave – which is what we mean by “different key”? If it’s something you haven’t heard many times before, rarely noticeable (as long as one version isn’t played right after the other),and in any case no particular emotion is associated with any particular key. If you have heard a recording of a piece many times over the years, then you might notice something odd if you heard it played in a key at least, say, three whole tones different (keeping the tempo and timbre the same, which is only possible in recent times, especially with vocal timbre)…but still no emotion\<-\>key link. (My cite for much of this is observations while helping my 7-year-old with his piano lessons over the past year). ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/71 "2018-01-08T16:53:57Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > And I think there are levels of sensitivity between “none” and “perfect pitch”. I agree with this – and that it’s likely a blend of “nature” (inborn ability) and “nurture” (training). ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/72 "2018-01-08T17:05:49Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > I mean, it doesn’t all sound the same to you. If the guitar was tuned down a whole octave, you’d clearly say “hey, this is lower!” Maybe you don’t notice at a half step, but what about a third? A fifth? Sure. And whether I notice may have to do with how often I play my instrument, when I last heard a reference pitch, how the strings feel in my hand (I’m NOT a guitar player–just somehow who putzes around with it-- so I’m obviously not sensitive enough to tell the difference of 3/4 of a step, but others may quite obviously tell the difference in terms of the physical feel.) I mean, there are some days when I notice something a quarter tone off. Most days, though, we can get to at least a whole tone before I might start feeling something is off, and then again, I may not. I don’t know what that interval is. Like I said, I’ve been off as much as a fourth while trying to play songs from memory that I’ve heard before (E and A; G and C seem to be the keys I like to swap.) At any rate, the absolute pitch doesn’t really affect–to me–any emotional response. If I cry at a song that’s in E flat, I’m going to cry if it’s played back to me in E or G or C. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/73 "2018-01-08T17:14:25Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > True enough; changing keys on a guitar is relatively easy with a capo. And the same song in a different key with a capo can sound similar to the original, but there are definitely differences in tone depending on where you play the song. The bigger the transposition, the more noticeable, obviously, but even one semitone makes a difference. If you really want to sound like Eddie Van Halen or Stevie Ray Vaughn, you make the extra effort and tune down a half step. The sound, not to mention the change in string tension, is noticeable. Yeah. When you play a tune up at capo 7 you are getting a very high brittle chirpy sound. It’s great for some songs you mentioned. “Here Comes a Regular” by the Replacements is a good one. My point is that when you talk about extremes of intervals you’re talking about a _ **circular system where if you go far enough you get back to the beginning.** _ So I say who cares how far you go? Also you could easily invent a divergent guitar that could play in that key you wanted without the chirpy sound. It’s the size and shape and physics of the thing. But it’s not musical. Same with EVH and his needs. It’s pragmatic. He tuned down but the songs stayed the same anyway. What does that do to a theory of pitch personalities? I’d say it destroyed it. When these guys tune down they are not seeking a different key or musical sound. They’re making it easier for themselves. I don’t do this but I wonder if anyone does here: You tune your guitar to a recording from memory. I might try it. I think Day in the life is in E. See how it goes over time, and if you get good results. The effect of pitch difference is nothing compared to the effect of pitches organized into music, that relate with each other dynamically. That leaves pitch differences between performances in the dust as far as the human ability to hear and appreciate sounds go. You would recognize that dynamic even in other keys. I don’t see the argument that pitch makes a difference to it. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/74 "2018-01-08T18:00:00Z")
I asked our church keyboardist. She doesn’t use the transpose function on the keyboard. She says it’s too easy to mess up the setting during church service. Or forget that transpose was activated for an earlier song. Hilarity would ensue if the choir expected a song in D and the piano was transposing to F. It’s safer to play keyboards, in the real key, in a live setting. Even a capo can be troublesome playing several songs live. It takes a little time to shift it around on the neck. Unless the pastor talks between songs. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/75 "2018-01-08T18:07:17Z")
Get the pastor to toss out several glory hallelujahs while the guitars position the capo. LOL ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/76 "2018-01-08T18:26:04Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > It’s safer to play keyboards, in the real key, in a live setting. This is very true, as I know from experience. 🙂 The last band I played in tuned down to E flat. For whatever reason, I just learned all the songs by their guitar chord shapes and played my instrument with the transpose function set to -1. (I have no idea why, as a half step transposition isn’t really all that difficult mentally.) I guess I was just so used to matching up what I was playing to the shapes I saw on the guitar chords, or something like that. At any rate, we had exactly one song that we played tuned to E, a song that starts out with the keyboards/piano before the guitars come in. It was also not a song we played often. So there’s about a good 16-24 bars I’m playing solo with the singer singing over it before another instrument comes in. We’re at a show in I think Dresden or Erfurt, and I’m chugging along when the bassist drops in, a half step off, and just gives me this wide-eyed look of alarm. He adjusts down a half step, being the brilliant musician that he is, but now we need to somehow let the singer/guitarist and other guitarist know that we’re off a half step, because the “power” chorus with all the instruments is about to come in. We all see the oncoming trainwreck. Unfortunately, we did not succeed in telegraphing the key change, and an unholy cacophony of noise ensued, with piano/bass playing in Eb, and guitars in E. It was a funny moment, as I just kept playing my part after everyone else stopped and then emphatically moved the piano figure up a half-step to underscore, “yep, that was MY fuck-up.” The crowd enjoyed a laugh and the little unexpected moment added to the song’s energy when we got it going again, in the right key. 🙂 So, yeah, I don’t advise using that transpose function out of laziness. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/77 "2018-01-08T18:28:09Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Somewhere up thread I mentioned that not every person has an equally sensitive palate. > > I mean, it doesn’t all sound the same to you. If the guitar was tuned down a whole octave, you’d clearly say “hey, this is lower!” Maybe you don’t notice at a half step, but what about a third? A fifth? > > Maybe I can’t quite tell these two shades of yellow apart without comparing them to each other, but these other two yellows are far enough apart that they’re going to look distinct. > > But maybe to someone else those first two yellows get recognized/stored as unique colors. > > It’s all about degree of sensitivity, and just because I can’t tell the difference reliably doesn’t mean that there isn’t one. And I think there are levels of sensitivity between “none” and “perfect pitch”. I don’t think a color analogy holds. Grape and burgundy are different, but d and d flat aren’t qualitatively diffferent for my perceptual abilities in musical contexts. The way I appreciate music is that I recognize the song, no matter what key. I would also recognize a photo or painting i_ **f the color relationships were all tinted proportionally** _, or it were monochrome. We all know that’s true. In fact you aren’t ever even seeing the same painting or photo as others did, because of fading, lighting variables etc. But we still go to the Louvre and look, and recognize it. Because we are perceptually prone to doing that. Music holds together, just like those pictures do. But no one is prone to hearing pitches (As distinct from hearing the _ **relationships** _ and dynamics between scale degrees, or music.) except those with perfect pitch. ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/78 "2018-01-08T18:35:08Z")
At least you’re not like Irving Berlin! > **[If Irving Berlin couldn’t read or write music, how did he compose?](https://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2664/if-irving-berlin-could-not-read-or-write-music-how-did-he-compose/)** Mostly if it’s just for you, play to suit yourself. If you’re playing with a vocalist or if you’re singing yourself, you want to put it in a key that is the most comfortable and assured. It’s a different story in “legitimate” singing – I’ve had voice teachers assign me work that was pitched way too high and they got upset when I didn’t/couldn’t sing it there. If I could sing it there maybe I wouldn’t have needed voice lessons! 😃 (It has been absolutely determined I’m definitely not a coloratura.) It does seem like certain keys have different emotional responses in humans. Not entirely sure why. We’re also apparently hard wired to be more comfortable with chords that resolve, hence pop music. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/79 "2018-01-08T18:44:19Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > I’m not going to speak for **DooWahDiddy** , and I don’t know that there’s a coherent argument to be made that specific keys by their nature evoke specific and universal emotional responses. However, it does seem obvious that the difference between C and C# is just as meaningful as the difference between two different colors. > > I think it would sound silly to argue that changing, say the overall hue or cast (not quite sure of my vocab here) of a painting and then claim that unless you saw the two side-by-side they are fundamentally equal and indistinguishable works of art. Similarly, pitches are different from each other. We have the ability to perceive that difference. Almost by definition a person is going to have a different response to different pitches/keys. That’s the thing; absolutely different notes and keys have a different feel, let alone being easier or more difficult to play. But the emotional response is as subjective as the person who hears it. I might hear Dm as the saddest of all keys, but someone else may have a sense of comedy from it. But there is no question that different keys have different emotional impact to me. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/80 "2018-01-08T18:57:38Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > That’s the thing; absolutely different notes and keys have a different feel, let alone being easier or more difficult to play. But the emotional response is as subjective as the person who hears it. I might hear Dm as the saddest of all keys, but someone else may have a sense of comedy from it. But there is no question that different keys have different emotional impact to me. But if you hear a sad song in Dm, it doesn’t sound sad in Em? I guess I just completely lack this ability. I, too, have associations with certain keys (as I mentioned upthread), but there’s no way in hell I’d be able to tell you if a certain tune is in a certain key based on how it “feels” to me, since I don’t have perfect pitch. You could easily fool me and tell me this is in my sad of C#m, and I’d believe you, and associate it with deep sadness, only to learn that HAH! It was C minor, you fool! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046.md?page=5)