# Musicians - questions about transposing music **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 7, 2018, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046 "2018-01-07T15:11:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/121 "2018-01-09T02:25:33Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Wow. Crazy. Showed this to my 7-year-old (a year of piano lessons under his belt), and he was blown away. “What if it was just CGI?,” he just now surmised! You should also check out Rick Beato’s other videos. He has a fun, pretty technical channel with a LOT of information, and goes into some pretty interesting scales and modes I had never heard of before, like the [double harmonic major](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-HZXm61Cv4) (which I sort of know from Middle Eastern music) and all its derived modes. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/122 "2018-01-09T02:25:40Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > So, if all those things are true except the new key is less than a third away, then a person will not perceive a difference? Again, this is the sort of absolute declaration that demands, I think, some kind of scientific study/citation. > > You’re on to something a little, I think, when you mention listing to a recording a lot. Like any pattern recognition, practice/exposure is part of it. What listening to a recording of a piece over and over again does is not only building pitch memory for that piece, but building pitch memory for other pieces that share the same pitches. I think that, if anything, it proves that absolute pitch is, in fact, a functional and identifiable variable and choice when making music. > > And, timbre is always linked to pitch range (among other things) for all instruments, not just vocals. So in one sense, this is part of the hitch upon which it all rests. In the real world, instruments sound different at different pitches (producing different sets of overtones at differing volumes). > > Somewhere in this thread (or maybe another, I’m getting a little sense of deja vu) **drad dog** made the argument that harmonic relationship is much more important than absolute pitch in music. I think that’s totally true; the bones, the essence of a piece of music is contained in its relative harmonic and rhythmic information (though even that can be elusive; re-harmonizing a melody is pretty common; is it still the same song?). However, there are other things that color a musical piece: timbre, absolute pitch, instrumentation, tempo, etc etc. We can hear and tell the difference between all of these things (again, with varying degrees of precision, and with various degrees of attention and practice): why insist that pitch is somehow ineffable? Where’s the evidence? > > Can you tell the difference between a clarinet and a saxophone? How about a bass clarinet and alto clarinet? Do you think that it’s possible? If not, why? Because they color the ensemble? The pitches are the vehicle for the melody, which is the song. The timbre, tempo, instrumentation are all “coloring.” (roughly speaking) But the melody isn’t, it’s the thing being colored. It can’t be varied without losing it’s identity (roughly speaking). Is that ineffable? It can be transposed, perfectly, while the other factors aren’t fixed that way. What interval would be audible to listener X? Hard to say. Everyone here knows pitches are distinguishable. But they don’t distinguish themselves practically _ **from each other** _ without a context of music that we understand mainly through key centers. I think the rest is woo. The key center can be placed at any number of cycles per second, whole, rational or irrational. That means that one key equals another in all respects except that one number. I don’t think it matters whether you can identify that number by ear. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/123 "2018-01-09T02:28:12Z")
It’s interesting. We expect Billy Joel and his band to be able to change keys on his songs (Although there was a mighty sigh of worry about it here) I expect him to anyway. But do we think that the songs changed moods because of this? ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/124 "2018-01-09T02:29:59Z")
Biffster: Are you asking for a definition of “woo”? Pulykamell: Thanks — look forward to it! Drad dog: EXACTLY. Again, so well put. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/125 "2018-01-09T02:30:48Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Also, I can pull a pitch out of thin air, most of the time. OK, then it sounds like you have something that is similar to, but not quite, perfect pitch. So you’re right in your appraisal of your abilities–a good memory for pitch. I’m wondering why if the colors are so clear and different between the notes, you sometimes get them wrong. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/126 "2018-01-09T02:35:15Z")
If you want real woo, just google the A432 pitch standard. There are some _real woo_ ideas with the proponents of that tuning standard. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/127 "2018-01-09T02:47:26Z")
My experience is that I can make a guess at a key, keeping the song in my head, but after a couple strums I am gone and can’t evaluate well. I’m already in the song, which just trumps everything. I’m trying to figure out why I don’t have a cognitive dissonance playing beatles songs all in A. I imagine their voices harmonizing with me, though, at least I think I do. You can work your way into believing chords are right when they’re not, same with a key. I would say that’s a function which argues against the personality of chords and more towards the personality of persons playing them. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/128 "2018-01-09T02:56:21Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Biffster: Are you asking for a definition of “woo”? > > Pulykamell: Thanks — look forward to it! > > Drad dog: EXACTLY. Again, so well put. Be very careful or you could wind up on my sig. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/129 "2018-01-09T02:56:49Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > It’s interesting. We expect Billy Joel and his band to be able to change keys on his songs (Although there was a mighty sigh of worry about it here) I expect him to anyway. > > But do we think that the songs changed moods because of this? Not moods so much, but feel. They were the right songs but something sounded a little off about them. Because they were all off by exactly the same amount, it made sense that the whole band, including the grand piano, would have transposed accordingly. Billy prefers a real piano, and you need a double hammer effect on something like Angry Young Man/Prelude, so I believe the whole piano was tuned lower. I could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/130 "2018-01-09T03:04:59Z")
An article from 2006 about Billy Joel and transposed songs. > **[Billy Joel: 12 Gardens Live, But Lower](http://jayladdin.blogspot.com/2006/05/billy-joel-12-gardens-live-but-lower.html?m=1)** > > So Billy has a new live disc coming out very soon. 12 Gardens Live will be released on June 13. Clearly, Sony is hurting for new Billy Jo... ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/131 "2018-01-09T03:11:37Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Not moods so much, but feel. They were the right songs but something sounded a little off about them. Because they were all off by exactly the same amount, it made sense that the whole band, including the grand piano, would have transposed accordingly. Billy prefers a real piano, and you need a double hammer effect on something like Angry Young Man/Prelude, so I believe the whole piano was tuned lower. I could be wrong. Hard to believe a half or whole tone was so annoying to the reviewer. I’m def going to listen, and I wasn’t going to before. It might be that he went down a whole register, and not a step. That’s happening to me now. I’m going lower. So with a pop star singing those chirpy ditties, when he has to change it’s going to be emotionally weird to hear it. Probably the best thing would be to rock it up good, and louder than the vocals. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/132 "2018-01-09T03:14:09Z")
Does anyone know what are the best mnemonic songs for tuning a guitar? Actually I meant best songs to try and suss from memory too. I might have to avoid the beatles ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/133 "2018-01-09T03:15:45Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > An article from 2006 about Billy Joel and transposed songs. > > [http://jayladdin.blogspot.ca/2006/05...lower.html?m=1](http://jayladdin.blogspot.ca/2006/05...lower.html?m=1) Hmm… I just looked up one of the Piano Man songs and, I gotta say, yeah, it does sound different to me. [This performance](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ict7HVYlFs). Double checking with my keyboard, yeah, it’s in Bb and, yeah, you seem to be right. The piano itself is detuned. Watching his left hand during the descending chromatic bass line at the beginning, he’s hitting all white keys there. Interesting. I didn’t think they did that with pianos, at least not that far. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/134 "2018-01-09T04:44:32Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Hmm… I just looked up one of the Piano Man songs and, I gotta say, yeah, it does sound different to me. [This performance](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ict7HVYlFs). Double checking with my keyboard, yeah, it’s in Bb and, yeah, you seem to be right. The piano itself is detuned. Watching his left hand during the descending chromatic bass line at the beginning, he’s hitting all white keys there. Interesting. I didn’t think they did that with pianos, at least not that far. Upon doing some more research, it would appear Mr. Joel prefers to use a transposing 88 key synth housed inside a grand piano body. The top is closed, making it impossible to close mic the piano strings for instance, so his piano that he plays in the stadiums must be custom built. Still sounds pretty damn good to me! As for that double hammer thing? Lots of practice. [http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2171418/3](http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2171418/3) ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/135 "2018-01-09T04:48:55Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Does anyone know what are the best mnemonic songs for tuning a guitar? > > Actually I meant best songs to try and suss from memory too. I might have to avoid the beatles Low E – Day Tripper A – Get Back D – We Can Work It Out G – Blackbird B – Hey Bulldog High E – Please Please Me Why avoid them when they’re so accessible? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/136 "2018-01-09T05:21:24Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Upon doing some more research, it would appear Mr. Joel prefers to use a transposing 88 key synth housed inside a grand piano body. The top is closed, making it impossible to close mic the piano strings for instance, so his piano that he plays in the stadiums must be custom built. Still sounds pretty damn good to me! As for that double hammer thing? Lots of practice. > [http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2171418/3](http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2171418/3) Sneaky! ---
**Author:** ![DooWahDiddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@DooWahDiddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooWahDiddy)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/137 "2018-01-09T05:43:30Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Upon doing some more research, it would appear Mr. Joel prefers to use a transposing 88 key synth housed inside a grand piano body. Yes, or a hybrid piano, just as I said. > [@pulykamell](#): > > Hmm… I just looked up one of the Piano Man songs and, I gotta say, yeah, it does sound different to me. Wow, so you could tell the difference between what you’ve heard a million times and what it sounds like only a whole step lower? Imagine that. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/138 "2018-01-09T05:50:08Z")
> [@DooWahDiddy](#): > > Wow, so you could tell the difference between what you’ve heard a million times and what it sounds like only a whole step lower? Imagine that. Sometimes. Today, apparently, is a good pitch day for me. I really cannot do this with any consistency. I’ve heard “Do Wah Ditty” a millions times, too (huge oldies fan here), and I was off by a whole step there, so, _shrug_. ---
**Author:** ![DooWahDiddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@DooWahDiddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooWahDiddy)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/139 "2018-01-09T06:04:17Z")
I know, but jeez, that’s all I was saying, and was the whole point of my _Fur Elise_ example (which, by the way, was a step and a half down, even more than the “Piano Man” experiment). And you could tell the difference even though you malign your own pitch-naming abilities. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046/140 "2018-01-09T06:04:50Z")
> [@DooWahDiddy](#): > > Wow, so you could tell the difference between what you’ve heard a million times and what it sounds like only a whole step lower? Imagine that. Put it this way, I’ve heard middle C or a C major scale a million times. This doesn’t mean I can identify middle C or a C major scale on demand. That’s the very definition of perfect pitch. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-questions-about-transposing-music/806046.md?page=8)