# Musicians: the effect of "swinging" the beat? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 22, 2005, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901 "2005-09-22T16:26:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rufus\_Xavier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@Rufus\_Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rufus_Xavier)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/21 "2005-09-22T18:55:45Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Does anyone remember a rock song ca. 1960’s, called “For Your Love”? Can’t remember the group; think it was part of the post-Beatles British invasion (Dave Clark Five??). It included the same tune played, alternately, even-eighths and swing. If you can dig this one up, it would be a good illustration. That would be The Yardbirds, 1965. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/22 "2005-09-22T19:05:35Z")
If you were vocalizing the pulses in a straight song you might go: dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum In a ‘swung’ song: DUM bah-DUM bah-DUM bah-DUM bah- ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/23 "2005-09-22T19:27:46Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Your ratio would require mental division of a single beat into 5 parts, a highly unusual number in (at least Western) music. I never said it was a conscious mathematical process, it just turns out to be that way. Strictly measured, it’s not actually 2:1. The “and” beat is slightly earlier than that. > [@](#): > > On preview, I see you are Hank Mancini fan, too. Not really. When it comes to jazz, I’m more of a Miles/'Trane/Dolphy kinda guy. ---
**Author:** ![Jpeg\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/4bbf92/32.png) [@Jpeg\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jpeg_Jones)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/24 "2005-09-22T19:31:20Z")
Okay, visually. Here’s straight eighths in 4/4 time: ```auto 1 2 3 4 |---|---|---|---|---|---|---|--- ``` Here’s a “light” swing with a 5:3 ratio: ```auto 1 2 3 4 |----|--|----|--|----|--|----|-- ``` Here’s a 3:1 ratio swing (dotted-eighth-sixteenth): ```auto 1 2 3 4 |-----|-|-----|-|-----|-|-----|- ``` And after all that coding, I realize I still haven’t really addressed the OP. What’s the “effect” of swing on the ears? I dunno. It seems to be a question along the same lines as “what effect does crescendo have on a listener”. I think it defies description. Except inasmuch as it clearly bucks rigidity of structure, so I guess there’s a sort of wry eye-winking idea behind it. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/25 "2005-09-22T19:33:34Z")
All good stuff - thanks. I like the Henry Mancini usage - makes sense. Also the Yardbirds (the Yardbirds, man - gotta know stuff like that!!!) 🙂 The biggest challenge here is not to explain, but to re-create the feeling of swing. Everybody is right who says “just play something that swings and something that doesn’t” - I get that and have done that. My question - the one that led to this thread, would be “how to write down in words the sensation of listening to a swing beat, so that a non-musician could understand it?” Haven’t you ever tried anything like that - like writing about sex - sure, doing it is the only way to know, but lots of folks try to write about the feelings. Or Esquire magazine has a feature called “what it feels like” where they have people discuss different things, such as what it feels like to drown, smoke weed with Snoop Dogg, hit a home run - stuff like that. Explained for the average reader. Well, along the same lines - what does it feel like to swing the beat? I have an attempt in an earlier post. I would be interested in your thoughts or your attempts to offer a similar description… ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/26 "2005-09-22T19:40:29Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > No live musician I ever played with thinks of it as 3:2, but 2:1, and there is no written notation system I know of that uses that ratio. Your ratio would require mental division of a single beat into 5 parts, a highly unusual number in (at least Western) music. No, but swing notation is approximation. Different musicians will swing with different ratios. That’s one reason why swung music is written out in eighth notes, with a little a top explaining that the song should be swung (usually by writing out a triplet figure.) This does not mean the musician must play the first half of each eighth note pair to two eighth-note triplets in length, and the second as one eighth-note triplet. This is just a conventient way to express the feel. Some musicians will swing close to straight eights, almost imperceptibly lengthening the first note, and shaving a tad off the second note. Hence your fractional values on your drum machine. When trying to “swing” a part in a sequencer, I almost never use 67% (triplet feel). I find smaller values in the range of 56%-62% (with 50% being straight eights) feel much more natural. Also, the accent patterns are quite crucial to properly swinging. In general, one swings by adding emphasis to the off-beat. Playing a straight-eighth note pattern with emphasis on every second note will give a piece a bit of “swing.” ---
**Author:** ![picker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/picker/32/13969_2.png) [@picker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picker)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/27 "2005-09-22T19:42:42Z")
I’ve got a wee hangover today and consequently can’t contribute too much to this discussion, but it occurred to me that you might play your friend the tune “On Green Dolphin Street” - the A part is a straight latin groove, and the B section jumps right into a mean swing. So this might illustrate your point very effectively. The version I would suggest is the one by Illinois Jacquet, as the swing is very pronounced, although most any version would serve nicely. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/28 "2005-09-22T19:48:44Z")
I think the \*\*effect \*\*of swinging is that it gives the impression of lightening and quickening the music, without actually doing so. It’s sort of the difference between walking and skipping. When walking, you’re just plodding evenly along, but skipping seems more animated and more “in the air,” even at the same speed, and swinging music seems to have a similar effect. Same thing with waltzes, as opposed to dances in 4/4 or 2/4. They seem lighter and more animated, especially when the third beat is slightly anticipated. ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/29 "2005-09-22T19:48:45Z")
> [@Jpeg Jones](#): > > It isn’t “playing slightly ahead of the beat”. Your friend may be thinking of **syncopation**. > > It’s just a slight tweaking of the steady pulse of (usually) eighth notes. > > When you’re playing straight, not swinging, the eighths are completely steady and mathematically equal to each other. When you swing, however, you stretch the first eighth note and then make up for it by squishing the next. Repeat ad inifinitum. > > A really heavy swing stretches the first eighth so it’s almost like a dotted-eighth-sixteenth figure. But a very subtle swing only stretches the first note slightly. > > I hope I’ve explained it in lay terms. Maybe I haven’t succeeded. > > By the way, the sheet music would be written out straight, but with the word “swing” written in at the top. it’s neither restricted to eighth notes, nor to “playing” Singing is involved also - and IMO “swing” is a style that can be applied to any musical composition - it’s an interpretation of the music, subject to the whim of the (solo) musician or (choral, orchestral, etc) director/conductor Whereas synchopation is a specific “hard-wired” elogated 8th followed by shortened 8th (or more accurately - dotted eigthth followed by sixteenth) ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/30 "2005-09-22T19:52:19Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I think the \*\*effect \*\*of swinging is that it gives the impression of lightening and quickening the music, without actually doing so. It’s sort of the difference between walking and skipping. When walking, you’re just plodding evenly along, but skipping seems more animated and more “in the air,” even at the same speed, and swinging music seems to have a similar effect. > > Same thing with waltzes, as opposed to dances in 4/4 or 2/4. They seem lighter and more animated, especially when the third beat is slightly anticipated. That’s EXACTLY the type of description I am looking for. Walking vs. Skipping is a great analogy. Thanks!! Anyone else have thoughts on how to approach this? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/31 "2005-09-22T19:52:27Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > My question - the one that led to this thread, would be “how to write down in words the sensation of listening to a swing beat, so that a non-musician could understand it?” That’s nearly impossible to answer. How would you describe a straight beat? Sometimes it feels like sadness, sometimes it feels like invading Moscow, and sometimes it feels like Santa Claus is comin’ to town. It’s a beat, not a song. But in the context of jazz I’d say it feels jiggly and free. In the context of rock I’d say it feels like gettin’ in the pickup, hanging the Stars and Bars from the rear window, and drivin’ off to fuck Becky Sue before gettin’ shitfaced on moonshine. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/32 "2005-09-22T19:53:55Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Or, to quote Professor Peter Schickele, “It don’t mean a thing if it ain’t got that _Je ne sais quois._” Yes, and you can dance to a swung waltz only if one of your legs is shorter than the other. ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/33 "2005-09-22T19:56:41Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > That’s nearly impossible to answer. How would you describe a straight beat? Sometimes it feels like sadness, sometimes it feels like invading Moscow, and sometimes it feels like Santa Claus is comin’ to town. It’s a beat, not a song. > > But in the context of jazz I’d say it feels jiggly and free. In the context of rock I’d say it feels like gettin’ in the pickup, hanging the Stars and Bars from the rear window, and drivin’ off to fuck Becky Sue before gettin’ shitfaced on moonshine. bizarre to say the least to me swing in rock is blasting the car radio with the windows rolled down and singing at the top of your lungs so \*\*\*everyone \*\* \* can share the great music ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/34 "2005-09-22T19:58:19Z")
> [@anyrose](#): > > bizarre to say the least > to me swing in rock is blasting the car radio with the windows rolled down and singing at the top of your lungs so \*\*\*everyone \*\* \* can share the great music like right now - i’m listening to Sha Na Na do “Witch Doctor” - I’m bouncing around at my desk - it’s Swinging, Man! ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/35 "2005-09-22T19:59:21Z")
another thought swing - Frank Sinatra straight - Pat Boone ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/36 "2005-09-22T20:08:52Z")
Wasn’t there a Beatles song that was recorded straight and then swing? I want to say it’s Revolution but I can’t hear the straight version. Layla is a good example, but the versions are different in so many other ways that it’s hard to compare them. ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/37 "2005-09-22T20:18:11Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Wasn’t there a Beatles song that was recorded straight and then swing? I want to say it’s Revolution but I can’t hear the straight version. > > Layla is a good example, but the versions are different in so many other ways that it’s hard to compare them. i disagree - i think the unplugged version of layla has a swing to it Swing doesn’t necessarily mean fast or loud - Swing is a feeling, an emotion ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/38 "2005-09-22T20:26:12Z")
To anyone trying to divide a typical swing quarter note in any other division than two or three equally-spaced parts, try this on for size. [list=“1”][li]If some instruments are playing a 2:3 ratio and others are playing 1:2, the rhythmic clash would be horrible. Doesn’t happen, folks. A “tight” rhythm section plays together, not with individual subdivisions.Although many major beats are played as quarter+eighth notes (think with a ‘3’ over them, a triplet), the 2nd of the 3 triplets can also be played, making eighth-eighth-eighth, very evenly spaced. This fits perfectly if some instruments are playing one pattern as others are playing the other, as long as the underlying rhythm is a triplet. It does NOT fit well if some are subdividing differently. With the possible exception of very fast tempos, there is no way this can happen without a terrible clash of rhythmic values. And while multi-rhythmic values simultaneously are a characteristic of some musical systems (African drumbeats come to mind), this is not typical of Western swing music.[/list][/li] As an illustration of the triplet subdivision, here is a song I just wrote & recorded, a short theme song I will be using for an amateur video production where we will be interviewing local old timers about their life experiences. In no way is this swing or even jazz (I tried for a 1890’s feel), but I think it illustrates the triplet subdivision as I described above: [http://doorbell.net/sounds/oldtyme1.mp3](http://doorbell.net/sounds/oldtyme1.mp3) And the fact that Brubeck wrote at least two compositions I know of in a 5/ time signature (actually, “Take Five” was written by Paul Desmond, I believe) sorta proves my point. Brubeck didn’t start a revolution and 5/4 comps are exceedingly rare nowadays, so rare that I have tried to collect 5/4 & 7/4 songs, and it’s a very small collection! ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/39 "2005-09-22T20:33:39Z")
> [@anyrose](#): > > i disagree - i think the unplugged version of layla has a swing to it > Swing doesn’t necessarily mean fast or loud - Swing is a feeling, an emotion Disagree? 😕 The original version does not swing, the unplugged version does. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/40 "2005-09-22T20:35:14Z")
> [@anyrose](#): > > another thought > swing - Frank Sinatra > straight - Pat Boone mistake - Pat Boone singing “Tutti Fruiti” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901.md?page=3)