# Musicians: the effect of "swinging" the beat? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 22, 2005, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901 "2005-09-22T16:26:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/41 "2005-09-22T20:36:08Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > And the fact that Brubeck wrote at least two compositions I know of in a 5/ time signature (actually, “Take Five” was written by Paul Desmond, I believe) sorta proves my point. I’m not sure what all this talk of Brubeck/Desmond is all about. The number of beats per measure have no bearing on whether the 8th notes swing. Which, in Take 5, they do, incidently. For a good example of 3/4 with swing, listen to Coltrane’s My Favorite Things. ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/42 "2005-09-22T20:40:22Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Disagree? 😕 The original version does not swing, the unplugged version does. the original ROCKS - I would hardly call it “straight”, unless i misinterpreted your comparison (_that’s_ what i was disagreeing with) ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/43 "2005-09-22T20:41:25Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > mistake - Pat Boone singing “Tutti Fruiti” heard it don’t like it ok - maybe PB wasn’t the best example How about Broadway vs the Opera? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/44 "2005-09-22T20:48:34Z")
> [@anyrose](#): > > the original ROCKS - I would hardly call it “straight”, unless i misinterpreted your comparison > (_that’s_ what i was disagreeing with) By straight I meant that the 8th notes are square and even. I didn’t mean to imply that the song was in any way tame. ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/45 "2005-09-22T21:00:16Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > By straight I meant that the 8th notes are square and even. I didn’t mean to imply that the song was in any way tame. Right now i’m listening to Leslie Gore sing “You Don’t Own Me” The notes, for the most part, are even and being sung as written - yet I hear a definite swing in her interpretation ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/46 "2005-09-22T21:09:25Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > That’s nearly impossible to answer. How would you describe a straight beat? Sometimes it feels like sadness, sometimes it feels like invading Moscow, and sometimes it feels like Santa Claus is comin’ to town. It’s a beat, not a song. > > But in the context of jazz I’d say it feels jiggly and free. In the context of rock I’d say it feels like gettin’ in the pickup, hanging the Stars and Bars from the rear window, and drivin’ off to fuck Becky Sue before gettin’ shitfaced on moonshine. Of course it’s nearly impossible to answer - what’s your point? 🙂 Look - to continue with an earlier analogy, sometimes sex is sad, sometimes angry and rough for fun, sometimes angry and rough in a bad way, sometimes romantic, sometimes sexy, etc…and yet people still are constantly trying to find ways to capture the sensation using words. A swing beat may not be as essential to the human condition as a good shtup, but I still think it is an interesting exercise to try to describe how it feels. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/47 "2005-09-22T21:12:04Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > A swing beat may not be as essential to the human condition as a good shtup, Sometimes one leads to the other. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/48 "2005-09-22T21:14:36Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > My question - the one that led to this thread, would be “how to write down in words the sensation of listening to a swing beat, so that a non-musician could understand it?” Eat the goddamn spinach. Eat the goddamn spinach. Eat the goddamn spinach. whoops. that’s 4:3. 😃 I guess it’s just one of those things you could agonize over for hours trying to write, or take 15 seconds to demonstrate. > [@](#): > > I found it intriguing that the first serious computerized drum machine I ever used, the Alesis D1 (which incidentally I helped design, but I didn’t write the internal program) had quantization options to divide the major beats into other fractions than thirds – described as ratios (thirds would be 2:1. I don’t recall the ratios, but there were several variations (like 2.2:1, 1.8:1, I think). > > Since I never heard of a live musician using or thinking in other ratios, it puzzled me why those were included. > > I haven’t looked closely at any rhythm machines or programs since, so I have no idea if they offer the same options today. Any electronic drummers around who can answer that? Nowadays they just use quarter note, eighth note, eighth note triplet, sixteenth note, sixteenth note triplet, etc. up to 64th. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/49 "2005-09-22T21:22:16Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I’m not sure what all this talk of Brubeck/Desmond is all about. Just natural association, however irrelevant: > [@Jpeg Jones](#): > > > [@Musicat](#): > > > > Your ratio would require mental division of a single beat into 5 parts, a highly unusual number in (at least Western) music. > > Tell that to Dave Brubeck. > [@mack](#): > > Nowadays they [drum machines] just use quarter note, eighth note, eighth note triplet, sixteenth note, sixteenth note triplet, etc. up to 64th. Interesting. If that is the case for all modern drum machines, what was Marcus Ryle thinking when he programmed the D1 for those odd ratios? Maybe it was just the challenge to be able to. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/50 "2005-09-22T21:43:09Z")
I’m confused by your posts, **Musicat**. Swing is most definitely not a perfectly neat subdivision. When a band “swings” everybody is locked into the groove, and that groove is rarely exactly set up as a a quarter, eighth-note triplet. I mean, there really is no music out there (except for electronica) that is played in perfect time. What am I missing here? ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/51 "2005-09-22T22:06:38Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > If that is the case for all modern drum machines, what was Marcus Ryle thinking when he programmed the D1 for those odd ratios? Maybe it was just the challenge to be able to. Probably to give the machine a “human feel”. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/52 "2005-09-22T22:15:14Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I’m confused by your posts, **Musicat**. Swing is most definitely not a perfectly neat subdivision. When a band “swings” everybody is locked into the groove, and that groove is rarely exactly set up as a a quarter, eighth-note triplet. I mean, there really is no music out there (except for electronica) that is played in perfect time. It certainly is. But the only way we will be able to resolve this is to do some detailed time analysis of commercial recordings by the millisecond. That might be a fun project, but too time-consuming for me at the moment unless someone wants to pay me for the gig. Either I’m right, or I’ve wasted decades of professional music playing the wrong way, and so far no one has criticized me for being on the wrong beat. (Playing the wrong _song,_ maybe… 🙂 ) > [@mack](#): > > Probably to give the machine a “human feel”. Maybe. I don’t recall if there was a “random variation” function available, which, within very small limits, could add a human touch. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/53 "2005-09-22T23:19:42Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > It certainly is. It most certainly is what? A perfect subdivision. [Read a detailed analysis](http://www.numericalsound.com/jazzswing.html) of the swing in jazz drummers here. Click on the PDF file. Look at the chart documenting average swing. In the way the author has quantified it, 250 is a hard sixteenth-note swing, 333 is triplet feel, 500 is straight eights. The average swing range for the jazz drummers goes from 282 (almost, but not quite, dotted eigths and sixteenths) to 443 (close, but not quite) straight eighths. This is what musicians mean when they talk about how hard a drummer swings. This is why you have ratios on your drum machines. Swing, especially at faster tempii, tends to gravitate more and more towards a straight-eight feel. But it’s not straight eighths. And it’s not triplets. It’s somewhere in between. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/54 "2005-09-22T23:33:04Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Either I’m right, or I’ve wasted decades of professional music playing the wrong way, and so far no one has criticized But no matter how hard you swing or not, you’re not going to be on the wrong beat, anyway. The 1-2-3-4 is still there where it belongs. And, whether you know it or not, you’re probably taking your swing cues from the drummer (or vice versa) so you’ll be playing in sync anyway. I mean, don’t you notice how drummers push and pull the beat? Take John Bonham, for instance. He’s the kind of the bluesy, behind-the-behind style of drumming. His drumming has it’s own swing because he places his snare hits on the back end of the beat. It got a lazy, funky swagger to it. Then you have somebody on the other end of the spectrum: Stewart Copeland. He’s always pushing the beat, playing on the very front end of it. It’s a completely different feel from Bonham. It’s more frenetic, more jumpy. Then, you have the king of playing smack dab in the center of the beat: Phil Collins. One drumming magazine did an analysis of popular drummers, and Phil Collins ended up rating the most perfect timekeeper of them all. The reason I bring this up is that music notation cannot quantify all the variables that go into feel, phrasing, timing, etc. It’s just very crude notation that doesn’t really capture the nuances that separate a Copeland from a Bonham, or a Bill Evans from a Cannonball Adderly. Swing, especially, is one of those extremely personal touches a performer makes. And swing varies widely in feel, and cannot and does not neatly and perfectly fit into sixteenth-note or eighth note subdivisions. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/55 "2005-09-22T23:35:59Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Bill Evans from a Cannonball Adderly. Whoops. I was going back and forth trying to think whether to compare pianists or saxophonists and somehow got one of each. I meant “Bill Evans from a Count Basie” or “John Coltrane from a Cannonball Adderly.” ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/56 "2005-09-22T23:52:47Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > music notation cannot quantify all the variables that go into feel, phrasing, timing, etc. It’s just very crude notation that doesn’t really capture the nuances that separate a Copeland from a Bonham, or a Bill Evans from a Cannonball Adderly. Swing, especially, is one of those extremely personal touches a performer makes. And swing varies widely in feel, and cannot and does not neatly and perfectly fit into sixteenth-note or eighth note subdivisions. Amen! Preach it, **puly**. Swing is _situational_; it has to fit into the greater context. It’s not simply a matter of notation or even feel –you don’t even _have_ to have a triplet, 3:2, or whatever feel to swing. A good illustration of this principle is to listen to really old records. Hear Benny Goodman play _Stompin’ at the Savoy_ in 1936, or _Don’t Be That Way_ in 1938. Then listen to Chick Webb play _Stompin’ at the Savoy_ or _Don’t Be That Way_ in 1934. The first-year jazz studies student in you will be tempted to say “The eighths are too straight. Ergo, this does not swing.” However, the first-year student in you is pigeonholing, listening but not _feeling._ Swing is momentum, drive, almost a physical force. The Webb band had it. So did the Goodman band, in a different way. I know, I know. “Chick Who”? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/57 "2005-09-23T00:53:29Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I mean, don’t you notice how drummers push and pull the beat? Take John Bonham, for instance. He’s the kind of the bluesy, behind-the-behind style of drumming. His drumming has it’s own swing because he places his snare hits on the back end of the beat. It got a lazy, funky swagger to it. > > Then you have somebody on the other end of the spectrum: Stewart Copeland. He’s always pushing the beat, playing on the very front end of it. It’s a completely different feel from Bonham. It’s more frenetic, more jumpy. Well, now you’re getting into territory that might be a bit too esoteric for the OP, and an area I alluded to when I said that swing is more likely to lag the beat than anticipate it (just a tiny, nearly imperceptible amount). But I was actually referring to major beats, not minor subdivisions. But this may be what makes the subtle difference between a jazz performer and a classical one. When I am playing jazz, the thought is “lay back,” just a cool hair late (to the major beat), and I think all good musicians are subconsciously hip to his feeling. But the division of a major beat into thirds, not fifths, is pretty much where it’s at. Indeed, although I haven’t yet checked your references, the numbers you cite hover around exactly the 3-to-the beat division I am describing. And no, I don’t expect a human being to be as exact as a metronome, but that’s the guiding concept. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/58 "2005-09-23T01:21:39Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Indeed, although I haven’t yet checked your references, the numbers you cite hover around exactly the 3-to-the beat division I am describing. No they don’t. Check my reference before you assert it confirms your statement. Donald Bailey, Elvin Jones, and Steve Gadd all tended more towards a 3:2 ratio rather than a 2:1 ratio. Here. Lemme break down the information for you, using your drum-machine ratio settings for swing: Art Blakey: 2.03:1 Art Taylor: 2.55:1 Bernard Purdie: 2.06:1 Buddy Rich: 2.08:1 Donald Bailey: 1.63:1 Ed Thigpen: 1.83:1 Max Roach: 1.75:1 Mickey Roker: 1.92:1 Philly Jo-Jones: 1.92:1 Jack Dejohnett: 1.75:1 Elvin Jones: 1.70:1 Steve Gadd: 1.42:1 Roy Haynes: 1.26:1 William Kennedy: 2.36:1 Tony Williams: 2.17:1 Dave Weckel: 1.99:1 This is exactly why drum machines and sequencers have such odd ratios for their swing settings. Like I said, I never swing any sequenced parts at 2:1–it’s always closer to something like 1.8 or even 1.5:1. For something that should be straight eights, I’ll even typically swing the hi-hat ever so slightly, like 1.1 or 1.2:1 just to give it a little more groove. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/59 "2005-09-23T01:26:36Z")
Of course, no musician thinks in 5-note subdivisions. You don’t think when you swing. You just swing. Of course you can say the basic pulse is either duple or triple meter for swing, but that doesn’t accurately convey the sorts of ratios we’re talking about. As you can see from my numbers, average swing for these drummers seems to hover somewhere between 3:2 (1.5:1) and 2:1. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901/60 "2005-09-23T01:30:22Z")
[And here’s yet another study.](http://www.acoustics.org/press/137th/friberg.html) First hit off google search for “Swing ratio”. > [@](#): > > The swing ratio (i.e. the ratio between two subsequent eighth notes) was found to vary substantially with tempo. **The common conception among musicians that the swing ratio is close to 2 (the first note is twice as long as the second) was not confirmed.** On the contrary, the duration of the second note was found to be constant at about 0.1 seconds for medium to fast tempi. This indicated that the second note had reached a limit of tone duration that corresponded to the shortest tone that can be individually perceived within a melodic line. (Emphasis added). You can even find examples of different swing ratios on that link. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/musicians-the-effect-of-swinging-the-beat/322901.md?page=4)