# Muslim Dopers in Western countries: Do you feel safe? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 14, 2015, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535 "2015-11-14T06:38:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/21 "2015-11-14T19:37:42Z")
> [@JoseB](#): > > I don’t know, but it seems to me that the Saudi Wahhabis, although possibly minoritary, … but it sure seems as if they are doing their level best to spread it out and extend their influence in other places. And they seem to be the ones that have most money to do so. They are a minority. Their doctrine has always historically been considered incorrect, and it only emerged from its backwards corner when the british support the Ibn Saud against the Ottoman for their narrow interests of the time. Of course they are trying to spread their hateful views. it is indeed a bad thing for they use their money to propagandize. > [@Grotonian](#): > > Gotcha. So my pointing out how 32,000,000 Muslim Saudis of 1.6 billion muslims, yes it is the typical hater approach to drag out the Saudi **government** as a statement about the muslims in general. so yes, the usual hating. > [@](#): > > I have got to say, talking to you is always awesome. Moumtaz, perhaps you can then go find your corner of the ATMB for complaining. > [@Grotonian](#): > > How about Iran? Is it legal to convert a Muslim to Christianity? Or is it hateful of me to ask this question? I am not an Iranian nor a citizen of the Iran, so I do not see what the other American bugbear has to do with the 1.6 billion Muslims in general or supposed hatreds. Of course it is usual that a question to a Muslim about our sense of security in the France becomes an occasion for the hatreds, it does illustrate why we have to have some concerns of safety for the persons who go farther to actions. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/22 "2015-11-14T23:47:44Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > They are a minority. Their doctrine has always historically been considered incorrect, and it only emerged from its backwards corner when the british support the Ibn Saud against the Ottoman for their narrow interests of the time. > > Of course they are trying to spread their hateful views. it is indeed a bad thing for they use their money to propagandize. > of 1.6 billion muslims, yes it is the typical hater approach to drag out the Saudi **government** as a statement about the muslims in general. > so yes, the usual hating. > Moumtaz, perhaps you can then go find your corner of the ATMB for complaining. > > I am not an Iranian nor a citizen of the Iran, so I do not see what the other American bugbear has to do with the 1.6 billion Muslims in general or supposed hatreds. > > Of course it is usual that a question to a Muslim about our sense of security in the France becomes an occasion for the hatreds, it does illustrate why we have to have some concerns of safety for the persons who go farther to actions. The irony of your whining about the construction, “I hate religion x, but not its adherents,” when your co-religionists do the EXACT SAME THING is what makes talking to you so delicious. (So, you don’t want to answer my question about conversion from Islam in Iran, eh? I don’t blame you.) I would be hesitant, if I were you, to make the argument that there are 1.6 billion Muslims so the behavior of scores of millions of Muslims is irrelevant. One could logically argue from that position that the fear of several million American Muslims for their safety is nothing in light of the over 1.59 billion Muslims who live with no fear at all. When one looks at the numbers, “Muslims” have nothing to fear from Western retaliation, even if several dozen were murdered a day in the west. Of course, one might argue that American Muslims, individually, have the right to not be murdered, but I doubt you would argue that since you don’t think Christians, individually, have the right to proseletyze in Iran or Saudi Arabia. If you do, you haven’t said so in this thread, you just keep saying the over 100 million Muslims in those countries aren’t enough Muslims to represent the religion. How many hundreds of millions of Muslims have to engage in hateful behavior before you will actually acknowledge that it is a facet of Islam? ---
**Author:** ![Mikeisskeptical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@Mikeisskeptical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikeisskeptical)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/23 "2015-11-15T02:09:57Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > To sum up: ‘hating Islam’ is problematic. I certainly think hate is too strong a word, but I definitely dislike _all_ religions pretty strongly. I don’t really feel that I have a choice in that. Any widely held beliefs or attitudes which I feel are built on falsehoods are problematic to me. (No doubt, many of my opinions fall into this category, but I was able to identify them definitively, I would immediately drop them.) I do acknowledge that the disproportionate anti-islamic sentiment we often hear is to a large extent fueled by racism, political ignorance and deliberate propaganda. I can’t honestly say I wouIdn’t prefer for everyone to wake up tomorrow without any supernatural beliefs at all though. I’d even go one step further and say I find something uniquely unpalatable about monotheism. Perhaps this is because I grew up surrounded by it and feel I understand its darker aspects better than those of other faiths. As I say, I wouldn’t myself choose the word _hate_, but if someone accused me of hating Islam (as distinct from Muslims) I don’t think I could honestly offer a particularly robust denial. Does that make me a bigot? If so, what do I do about it? ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/24 "2015-11-15T03:11:07Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > The irony of your whining . . . > . . . So, you don’t want to answer my question about conversion from Islam in Iran, eh? . . . > . . . you don’t think Christians, individually, have the right to proseletyze in Iran or Saudi Arabia . . . > . . . . . > How many hundreds of millions of Muslims have to engage in hateful behavior before you will actually acknowledge that it is a facet of Islam? Erm … **Grotonian**? I wandered into this thread because I was actually interested in the topic of the OP and wanted to hear the perspectives of actual Mulsim dopers or people with close experience. Not to junior mod, but it would be real nice to stick to the topic. Or, you know, maybe let people with relevant experience express their views without getting all up in their face. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/25 "2015-11-15T03:22:16Z")
Was at a coffee shop this a.m., noticed a young woman wearing a head scarf - apologies for my ignorance at not knowing the correct term or what religion it signifies. But it crossed my mind to wonder whether she had thought anything when donning it this a.m. Would be difficult to have the sign of something you believe make it convenient for people to stereotype you. I have great sympathy for nonfanatical believers. If it were me, I’d consider losing the scarf. But I don’t believe in any god(s). ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/26 "2015-11-15T04:56:37Z")
> [@Not\_Carlson](#): > > Erm … **Grotonian**? > I wandered into this thread because I was actually interested in the topic of the OP and wanted to hear the perspectives of actual Mulsim dopers or people with close experience. > Not to junior mod, but it would be real nice to stick to the topic. Or, you know, maybe let people with relevant experience express their views without getting all up in their face. > Just sayin’. Are you joking me? What is relevant to the OP of Ramira saying, “we Muslims get scared when westerners say the same things we Muslims do”? That she doesn’t acknowledge that Muslims hate other religions doesn’t change the fact that they do. It’s official policy in many Muslim countries, for Christ’s sake! But thanks for not junior modding. I guess I didn’t understand how these message boards work; I thought Ramira and I could respond to each other and other posters could still post around us and ignore our conversation if they chose. But apparently, if a Muslim posts nonsense it becomes a hijack if she is challenged and the board will not accept posts directly responding to the op. Glad you set me straight on how this works. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/27 "2015-11-15T05:23:35Z")
Yeah, not problem mate. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/28 "2015-11-15T10:50:55Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > I think had this attack happened in the U.S. then maybe there would be some reason to fear reprisals. In France, not so much. Why would you think that? Because of all the hate crimes and violence against muslims after 9/11? Oh wait, that’s right, _ **there wasn’t any!!!** _ I think I’d be more worried in France, a country where soccer hooligans regularly call foreign black football players ‘monkeys’ and derisively throw bananas on the field at them… ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/29 "2015-11-15T11:15:40Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > The irony of your whining about the construction, “I hate religion x, but not its adherents,” when your co-religionists do the EXACT SAME THING is what makes talking to you so delicious. Irony? No there is no irony at all. What is ironic you think playing bigotted “gotcha” pulling out the Iran and the Saudi arabia, is a statement about all the muslims or even any such thing as relevant to the subject of whether we have concern for bigot-reaction against us, the moderate and anti-takfiri. Of course _ **some co religionists do** _ (of course you drag out the American betes noires of the Iran and the Saudi arabia, representing the extreme examples of the muslim majority countries governments), here you again do the bigot thing of sweeping generalization. Why a muslim who has no roots in the Saudi arabia or the Iran and is not of their sects has anything to respond to … So in fact you illustrate exactly where the Western muslim’s concerns come from - the bigots who deliberately smear the minority with the bad practices from some countries (from which they do not even come and do not even share the specific sect with, like screaming the abuse at the Anglican for something the Baptist believe). People like you are why we have to have concern as the minorities. > [@](#): > > (So, you don’t want to answer my question about conversion from Islam in Iran, eh? I don’t blame you.) The subject of this thread is not the Iran nor the conversion or not, and I am not a Shia nor an Iranian, so I am not going to play idiotic bigot games. It makes as much sense to attack a British Christian for the practices of one of your bizarre American sects as to play this idiot bigot game. > [@](#): > > I would be hesitant, if I were you, to make the argument that there are 1.6 billion Muslims so the behavior of scores of millions of Muslims is irrelevant. I would be embarrassed to be making bigotted arguments and attacks in a thread entitled “Muslim Dopers in Western countries: do you feel safe?” But apparently you lack any self-awareness. > [@Grotonian](#): > > Are you joking me? What is relevant to the OP of Ramira saying, “we Muslims get scared when westerners say the same things we Muslims do”? Your colossal bigot Straw man of course is wrong. All this is is an effort to silence. to indicate concern about a situaiton in the France for example is not to say ANYTHIING about a situation in the Morocco or the United states. It is grossly illogical and the only reason to try to confuse them is for the justification of hte bigotry via “they are as bad” using They in its usual bigot way where it is All the Muslims. > [@](#): > > That she doesn’t acknowledge that Muslims hate other religions doesn’t change the fact that they do. I acknowledge nothig of such Falsehoods, but I do see the game of the Justification of the bigotry. Your barging in and asserting in sweeping fashion about the Muslims and dragging in the Iran and the Saudi Arabia is idiot bigot knee jerking. It makes as much sense as in a conversation about the sentiments of the Caribbean British about discrimination to dag in the American problems… > [@](#): > > It’s official policy in many Muslim countries, for Christ’s sake! Hatred of other religions? In the Saudi arabia, yes, but it is not “many” countries that teach and institutionalise such things as teaching hatred of the other religions. The contrary. Of course the Saudi case is a dictatorial monarchy that took power violently and is well known for instrumentalising its apparentence to the Wahhabites in order to keep its power, and their actions are about their keeping power and keeping the Wahhabite movement, even in the Peninsula not majority, on their side for power purposes. But this has as much to do with the experience of the French muslim of the Maghrebine or the sub-Saharan origin, who is generally Sufi, as the snake-handling churches of the USA have to do with the Anglicans. Laws against the prosletyzing, it is not hatred (and as has been mentioned such laws exist even in the EU as in the Greece, I do not see the Greeks hating the Roman Catholics or the others, but their Orthodox church does distrust them). The law against this in the Maghreb, which is the religion neutral in the Code, was in fact originally in its initial textes written by the French during the colonization. Of course the motivations were the peace of the colon rule. I am not bothered by a neutral law forbidding prosletyzing generally, in keep liberty of the appartenance. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/30 "2015-11-15T11:27:14Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Why would you think that? Because of all the hate crimes and violence against muslims after 9/11? Oh wait, that’s right, _ **there wasn’t any!!!** _ . What a strange thing to write, the American justice department cites for their [federal actions](http://www.justice.gov/crt/combating-post-911-discriminatory-backlash-6) such things as: > [@](#): > > Sacramento, California: Matthew John Burdick pled guilty to assaulting a federal employee while engaged in his official duties on May 28, 2003, for shooting and wounding a Sikh postal carrier with a high-powered pellet rifle. The victim sustained a severe injury to his neck that required surgery and caused him to miss several months of work. On September 17, 2003, Burdick was sentenced to 70 months in prison and ordered to pay $25,395 in restitution. > > St. Petersburg, Florida: Four defendants obtained substantial prison sentences plotting to destroy the Islamic Education Center. On April 3, 2003, Dr. Robert Goldstein pled guilty to conspiracy to violate civil rights, attempted destruction of religious property, and firearms violations. Goldstein was sentenced to 151 months in prison. His wife, Kristi, had previously pled guilty to firearms violations and been sentenced to 37 months in prison. Dr. Michael Hardee pled guilty to conspiracy to violate civil rights, conspiracy to detonate explosive devices, and firearms violations, and was sentenced to 41 months in prison. A fourth defendant, Samuel Shannahan, pled guilty to a firearms offense and was sentenced to 56 months in prison. > > Seattle, Washington: Patrick Cunningham pled guilty on May 9, 2002, for attempting, two days after September 11, 2001, to set fire to cars in the parking lot of Seattle’s Islamic Idriss Mosque. He then fired a gun at worshipers who exited the mosque, and then fled. He was apprehended by police after crashing his vehicle. On December 17, 2002, Cunningham was sentenced to 78 months incarceration. > > Salt Lake City, Utah: James Herrick pled guilty to pouring gasoline on the wall of a Pakistani-American restaurant on September 13, 2001, and lighting it in an attempt to destroy the building. He was sentenced on January 7, 2002 to 51 months incarceration. And of course the Sikhs [suffering by](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/07/history-of-hate-crimes-against-sikhs-since-911_n_1751841.html)ricochet: > [@](#): > > Sept. 15, 2001 – Mesa, Ariz.: Four days after the infamous attacks of 9/11, Balbir Singh Sodhi, a 49-year-old Sikh, is shot and killed outside the gas station he owned by Frank Silva Roque. When police approached to arrest him, Roque says, “I’m a patriot and an American. I’m American. I’m a damn American.” [More from HuffPost.] > > Nov. 18, 2001 – Palermo, N.Y.: Three teens burn down Gobind Sadan, a gurdwara (Sikh temple) in New York, because they thought it was named for Osama bin Laden. [More from BeliefNet and Tribune of India.] > > Dec. 12, 2001 – Los Angeles, Calif.: Surinder Singh Sidhi, a liquor store owner in Los Angeles who took to wearing an American flag turban after 9/11 out of fear of being attacked, is beaten in his store by two men who accuse of him of being Osama bin Laden. [More from Real Sikhism.] > > Aug. 6, 2002 – Daly City, Calif.: Sukhpal Singh, brother of Balbir Singh Sodhi, who was the first Sikh murdered following 9/11, is shot while driving his cab. [More from HuffPost, Real Sikhism and Sikh American Legal Defense and Education Fund.] > > May 20, 2003 – Phoenix, Ariz.: Fifty-two-year-old Sikh immigrant and truck driver Avtar Singh is shot in his 18-wheeler while waiting for his son to pick him up. As he is being shot, he hears someone say: “Go back to where you belong.” [More from Real Sikhism.] > > Aug. 5, 2003 – Queens, N.Y.: Members of a Sikh family are beaten outside of their home by drunk individuals yelling, “Go back to your country, Bin Laden.” [More from NY Daily News.] We can add from [wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobic_incidents#United_States_of_America) some added > [@](#): > > among the victims of the backlash was a Middle-Eastern man in Houston, Texas who was shot and wounded after an assailant accused him of “blowing up the country”[110] and four immigrants shot and killed by a man named Larme Price who confessed to killing them as “revenge” for the September 11 attacks.[112] But it is good that the American establishment resisted such reaction (and one can understand it). But it is false to pretend it did not exist. and it is also this that renders the hate speech dangerous, it does enable violence. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/31 "2015-11-15T11:30:02Z")
in any case, I have answered the actual OP and that is enough for this, I have no interest in some stupid attacks around the practices of the Iran and the Saudi arabia, any more than a British would feel like defending George Bush. Basta. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/32 "2015-11-15T12:03:04Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Irony? No there is no irony at all. What is ironic you think playing bigotted “gotcha” pulling out the Iran and the Saudi arabia, is a statement about all the muslims or even any such thing as relevant to the subject of whether we have concern for bigot-reaction against us, the moderate and anti-takfiri. > > Of course _ **some co religionists do** _ (of course you drag out the American betes noires of the Iran and the Saudi arabia, representing the extreme examples of the muslim majority countries governments), here you again do the bigot thing of sweeping generalization. Why a muslim who has no roots in the Saudi arabia or the Iran and is not of their sects has anything to respond to … > > So in fact you illustrate exactly where the Western muslim’s concerns come from - the bigots who deliberately smear the minority with the bad practices from some countries (from which they do not even come and do not even share the specific sect with, like screaming the abuse at the Anglican for something the Baptist believe). > > People like you are why we have to have concern as the minorities. > > The subject of this thread is not the Iran nor the conversion or not, and I am not a Shia nor an Iranian, so I am not going to play idiotic bigot games. It makes as much sense to attack a British Christian for the practices of one of your bizarre American sects as to play this idiot bigot game. > > I would be embarrassed to be making bigotted arguments and attacks in a thread entitled “Muslim Dopers in Western countries: do you feel safe?” > > But apparently you lack any self-awareness. > > Your colossal bigot Straw man of course is wrong. > > All this is is an effort to silence. > > to indicate concern about a situaiton in the France for example is not to say ANYTHIING about a situation in the Morocco or the United states. It is grossly illogical and the only reason to try to confuse them is for the justification of hte bigotry via “they are as bad” using They in its usual bigot way where it is All the Muslims. > > I acknowledge nothig of such Falsehoods, but I do see the game of the Justification of the bigotry. > > Your barging in and asserting in sweeping fashion about the Muslims and dragging in the Iran and the Saudi Arabia is idiot bigot knee jerking. It makes as much sense as in a conversation about the sentiments of the Caribbean British about discrimination to dag in the American problems… > > Hatred of other religions? > > In the Saudi arabia, yes, but it is not “many” countries that teach and institutionalise such things as teaching hatred of the other religions. The contrary. Of course the Saudi case is a dictatorial monarchy that took power violently and is well known for instrumentalising its apparentence to the Wahhabites in order to keep its power, and their actions are about their keeping power and keeping the Wahhabite movement, even in the Peninsula not majority, on their side for power purposes. But this has as much to do with the experience of the French muslim of the Maghrebine or the sub-Saharan origin, who is generally Sufi, as the snake-handling churches of the USA have to do with the Anglicans. > > Laws against the prosletyzing, it is not hatred (and as has been mentioned such laws exist even in the EU as in the Greece, I do not see the Greeks hating the Roman Catholics or the others, but their Orthodox church does distrust them). The law against this in the Maghreb, which is the religion neutral in the Code, was in fact originally in its initial textes written by the French during the colonization. Of course the motivations were the peace of the colon rule. > > I am not bothered by a neutral law forbidding prosletyzing generally, in keep liberty of the appartenance. Your disingenuousness is, as usual, really fun and totally awesome. Our friends at Wikipedia claim there are FIFTEEN Muslim countries, representing hundreds of millions of Muslims, where it is a crime to convert a Muslim to Christianity: > **[Persecution of Christians](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians)** > > The persecution of Christians can be historically traced from the first century of the Christian era to the present day. Christian missionaries and converts to Christianity have both been targeted for persecution, sometimes to the point of being martyred for their faith, ever since the emergence of Christianity. > Early Christians were persecuted at the hands of both Jews, from whose religion Christianity arose, and the Romans who controlled many of the early centers of Christianity in the Ro... Let me guess, this has nothing to do with Islam, does it? It has nothing to do with Sharia, does it? This is all a misunderstanding caused by French colonists and the King of Saudi Arabia, isn’t it? Islam doesn’t recognize the crime of apostasy, does it? Wow. You poor Muslims, just trying to live your lives and love all religions equally and you’ve got Wikipedia printing the most baseless libels against you. Wikipedia just makes up lies about apostasy laws in 15 Muslim countries, doesn’t it? Like I said, talking to you is always awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/33 "2015-11-15T12:13:09Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > in any case, I have answered the actual OP and that is enough for this, I have no interest in some stupid attacks around the practices of the Iran and the Saudi arabia, any more than a British would feel like defending George Bush. Basta. Except it isn’t just Iran and Saudi Arabia, is it? It’s almost all Muslim countries, isn’t it? You can claim all you want that the construction, “I hate religion x, but not its adherents” offends Muslims; but it’s quite obvious that that is exactly what Muslims pull when they are the majority in a country. But, yeah, this might be a good time for you to peace out. Deuces. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/34 "2015-11-15T12:22:29Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Your disingenuousness No disingenuousness at all unlike your distortions and dragging in unrelated topics. Banning proslytizing is not hatred, and even in the EU it is not uncommon: > [@](#): > > More than one-in-five (22%) European governments or government representatives imposed restrictions on proselytizing, including Greece, where the constitution and law forbid proselytizing. However, as of mid-2010, there were fewer reported cases where Greek police detained people for proselytizing. Whether these laws need to exist is another thing. > [@](#): > > Islam doesn’t recognize the crime of apostasy, does it? In fact the term is not used in the Quran, and there is no clear Quranic law on this. There are traditions from the medieval period. But this is neither here nor there as it has nothing to do with the subject (other than illustrating exactly the risk the religious minority faces with the hate mongerers). > [@](#): > > You poor Muslims, just trying to live your lives and love all religions Again the Bigot Game of sweeping broad brush attacks on an entire group. Of course I made no statements other than responding about the question of concern. Your gross distortions and irrelevancies aside. > [@](#): > > Like I said, talking to you is always awesome. Your habits of negative and tedious discourse stay the same, here, ATMB… whatever. > [@Grotonian](#): > > I hate religion x, but not its adherents" offends Muslims; but it’s quite obvious that that is exactly what Muslims pull when they are the majority in a country… Banning proselytizing is not hating other religions, not if a muslim country does it, not if the Greeks or another EU country do it. If the muslim or the christian is free to pursue individual practice, I see no hatred, this is an idiotic straw man. As already touched on. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/35 "2015-11-15T12:26:30Z")
**Ramira** , I’ve been sitting quietly appreciating your contributions to this thread and all the Muslim threads you have participated in. I as many others here I’m sure happen to think you bring a lot to the table when it comes to fighting ignorance against Islam. So thank you for your well informed input. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/36 "2015-11-15T12:30:33Z")
Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/37 "2015-11-15T12:35:59Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Was at a coffee shop this a.m., noticed a young woman wearing a head scarf - apologies for my ignorance at not knowing the correct term or what religion it signifies. If she is a muslim, [Hidjab](https://www.google.com/search?q=stylish+hijabs&safe=off&espv=2&biw=1600&bih=785&site=webhp&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CB4QsARqFQoTCODG4pa4kskCFcwKGgodgDYFEQ). > [@](#): > > I have great sympathy for nonfanatical believers. If it were me, I’d consider losing the scarf. But I don’t believe in any god(s). If she is muslim and wears the hidjab, she presumably thinks it is a positive and she would be a hypocrite not to wear it. Although like in Judiasm, the standard is that no requirement of the religion overrides the preservation of the human life and the human safety. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/38 "2015-11-15T12:48:08Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Your disingenuousness is, as usual, really fun and totally awesome. Our friends at Wikipedia claim there are FIFTEEN Muslim countries, representing hundreds of millions of Muslims, where it is a crime to convert a Muslim to Christianity: > > [Persecution of Christians - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians) > … if it is also a crime to convert a Christian to Islam in any of those countries, you should cross them off your list. Israel is another country that outlaws proselytizing. I don’t think it’s because they hate Christians. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/39 "2015-11-15T12:57:18Z")
Anyhow, back to the topic… I am not Muslim, and can’t tell if the local Muslims are worried. I know they were after 9/11. (I am in the US.) A Turkish restaurant had just opened town. It got good reviews. Then 9/11 happened. They bought a giant US flag and hung in their front window. The intended message was clear. “We are on your side.” It worked. The place has since expanded, and their window once again has Turkish and stuff. There seem to be a lot of Muslims around these days, and most of them are just ordinary citizens going about their business. I hope they don’t feel unsafe. But I think it’s more dangerous in France right now than in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/40 "2015-11-15T13:08:58Z")
I do not think it is very dangerous in the France, but there is the hateful fringes (yes of both sides to avoid any doubts). So worry is there, and I worry about more negative actions backfiring like the ban on the hidjab. and the discrimination in getting the employment getting worse, that is a concern, with the France keeping a blind eye to this for decades. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535.md?page=3)