# Muslim Dopers in Western countries: Do you feel safe? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 14, 2015, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535 "2015-11-14T06:38:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/41 "2015-11-15T15:30:02Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > No disingenuousness at all unlike your distortions and dragging in unrelated topics. > > Banning proslytizing is not hatred, and even in the EU it is not uncommon: > Whether these laws need to exist is another thing. No; banning proseletyzing IS hatred when the punishment is DEATH, as it is in some Muslim countries. Does Greece KILL people for converting? Yeah, I didn’t think so. > [@](#): > > In fact the term is not used in the Quran, and there is no clear Quranic law on this. There are traditions from the medieval period. There doesn’t NEED to be quranic law; when a billion Muslims say it’s sharia, it’s sharia. Duh. If a billion Muslims say it’s part of Islam, it’s part of Islam. And no one’s talking about the Middle Ages; stop with your misinformation, Muslim nation ban conversions from Islam TODAY, not 700 years ago, TODAY. > [@](#): > > But this is neither here nor there as it has nothing to do with the subject (other than illustrating exactly the risk the religious minority faces with the hate mongerers). > > Again the Bigot Game of sweeping broad brush attacks on an entire group. > > Of course I made no statements other than responding about the question of concern. > > Your gross distortions and irrelevancies aside. What distortion? Do 15 Muslim nations ban conversion to Christianity or not? Is the penalty in many of those countries DEATH or not? If I’m wrong, please correct me. > [@](#): > > Your habits of negative and tedious discourse stay the same, here, ATMB… whatever. > Banning proselytizing is not hating other religions, not if a muslim country does it, not if the Greeks or another EU country do it. If the muslim or the christian is free to pursue individual practice, I see no hatred, this is an idiotic straw man. > > As already touched on. Oh, so seeking converts is banned, but converting is perfectly legal in Muslim countries? Is that your claim? Because that is UNTRUE! Apostasy is the crime of converting from Islam and it’s penalty is DEATH. Stop spreading misinformation that Muslim countries allow the individual to follow his conscience, you know that’s untrue. Read my link if you believe that. But you already know it’s false to claim that Muslims can convert in Muslim countries, you just won’t admit it here. But thanks for staying awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/42 "2015-11-15T15:52:23Z")
**Ramira** , thank you for your input. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/43 "2015-11-15T15:53:15Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > **Ramira** , I’ve been sitting quietly appreciating your contributions to this thread and all the Muslim threads you have participated in. I as many others here I’m sure happen to think you bring a lot to the table when it comes to fighting ignorance against Islam. > > So thank you for your well informed input. I completely agree with this. **Ramira** , I’m so sorry for the bigotry you undoubtedly face daily and I really hate it when some try to trivialize it and pretend it doesn’t exist. I pray that someday that will all change and everyone can learn to coexist peacefully. Until then, my fervent hope is that you and yours remain safe. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/44 "2015-11-15T16:13:05Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > No; banning proseletyzing IS hatred when the punishment is DEATH you seem not to know what the word means and seem to be only able to think through gross logical fallacy - of the excluded middle… and pure hateful bigotry, but no surprise. > [@](#): > > Oh, so seeking converts is banned, but converting is perfectly legal in Muslim countries? In some yes, in some no. In most countries there is no law on it at all… but that does not fit your hate filled screeds. > [@](#): > > Is that your claim? Because that is UNTRUE! Capitalization does not make your ignorant and bigoted shrieking more true - not that this has any thing at all to do with the OP other than some people like the hate-filled bigots can not resist any opportunity to spew their hatreds. > [@](#): > > Apostasy is the crime of converting from Islam and it’s penalty is DEATH. In the Saudi Arabia, yes and some others. In most other countries there is not a specific law about it. Of course bigoted officials or those catering to the loud bigots will sometimes exploit other laws like violating public morals against people accused of such (although these are not death penalty laws). of course even within the religious interpretation it is not unanimous that apostasy is punishable at all or by death, as the bases are weaker hadith, and indiret, while the Quranic text says clearly no compulsion in religion. Again this has no thing to do with the OP. > [@](#): > > Stop spreading misinformation that Muslim countries allow the individual to follow his conscience, you know that’s untrue. I do not know it “untrue” as you are engaged in hysteric shrieking exagerations and misrepresentations. The legal situation in most of the North african countries is ambiguous and it is not penalized directly > [@](#): > > Read my link if you believe that. But you already know it’s false to claim that Muslims can convert in Muslim countries, you just won’t admit it here. no I do not - in most of the sub-Saharan and the Asian countries there is not any law at all. In the North africa the laws on the books are about the proslytizing and it is via other laws that people converting are harassed. I personally know some who did convert, I feel a bit sad for them but they are not prosecuted, although they are socially shunned. so the false claims are yours in the gross exagerations. Not that I am pleased with the state of the civil rights in the maghreb or the middle east, but I see no reason to follow the bilous hate filled bigots attacks - this idiocy of excluded middles fallacies and in You Too bigoted reaction… (as if there had been any comparative statements…) > [@](#): > > But thanks for staying awesome. There is no thanks for a duty. We can thank you for keeping to your contemptible discussion habits. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/45 "2015-11-15T16:17:51Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > I completely agree with this. **Ramira** , I’m so sorry for the bigotry you undoubtedly face daily and I really hate it when some try to trivialize it and pretend it doesn’t exist. I pray that someday that will all change and everyone can learn to coexist peacefully. Until then, my fervent hope is that you and yours remain safe. Thank you but I do not think I face much bigotry daily. In person people are usually too shy to express themselves as they do here, and it is a minority. but it is important not to trivialize how using the speech to demonize, direclty or indirectly the minority group sets the plate for worse things. otherwise I would not react to this, not being very religious at all, even agnostic in a way. Seeing this kind of speech has sensitized me to when it is done around me about others, like the Jewish religion and people. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/46 "2015-11-15T16:24:18Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > I think had this attack happened in the U.S. then maybe there would be some reason to fear reprisals. In France, not so much. In France, not so much? Where do you get that nonsense from? > [@](#): > > [**[SIZE=“3”]‘Dangerous Moment’ for Europe, as Fear and Resentment Grow[/SIZE]**](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/08/world/europe/paris-attack-reflects-a-dangerous-moment-for-europe.html?_r=0) > > “Large parts of the European public are latently anti-Muslim, and increasing mobilization of these forces is now reaching into the center of society,” Mr. Neumann said. “If we see more of these incidents, and I think we will, we will see a further polarization of these European societies in the years to come.” > > Those who will suffer the most from such a backlash, he said, are the Muslim populations of Europe, “the ordinary normal Muslims who are trying to live their lives in Europe.” > > Nowhere in Europe are the tensions greater than in constitutionally secular France, with as many as six million Muslims, a painful colonial history in Algeria, Syria and North Africa, and a militarily bold foreign policy. That history has been aggravated by a period of governmental and economic weakness, when France seems incapable of serious structural, social and economic reform. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/47 "2015-11-15T16:42:22Z")
It is less the reprisals, I do not have great worries, than a deepening of the discrimination particularly in employment and leading to more social exclusion for the minority populations. Getting a job as Kobal can confirm if you have the wrong name is very hard, and it has been demonstrated again and again the same CV with a “real French name” gets called in for the interview many times more than an immigrant name / non european name. The France is blinding itself and not taking badly needed reforms to the labor markets, but I am in the French context an ultra liberal for freer markets. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/48 "2015-11-15T21:08:13Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > you seem not to know what the word means and seem to be only able to think through gross logical fallacy - of the excluded middle… and pure hateful bigotry, but no surprise. > > In some yes, in some no. In most countries there is no law on it at all… but that does not fit your hate filled screeds. > > Capitalization does not make your ignorant and bigoted shrieking more true - not that this has any thing at all to do with the OP other than some people like the hate-filled bigots can not resist any opportunity to spew their hatreds. > In the Saudi Arabia, yes and some others. > > In most other countries there is not a specific law about it. Of course bigoted officials or those catering to the loud bigots will sometimes exploit other laws like violating public morals against people accused of such (although these are not death penalty laws). > > of course even within the religious interpretation it is not unanimous that apostasy is punishable at all or by death, as the bases are weaker hadith, and indiret, while the Quranic text says clearly no compulsion in religion. > > Again this has no thing to do with the OP. > > I do not know it “untrue” as you are engaged in hysteric shrieking exagerations and misrepresentations. The legal situation in most of the North african countries is ambiguous and it is not penalized directly > no I do not - in most of the sub-Saharan and the Asian countries there is not any law at all. In the North africa the laws on the books are about the proslytizing and it is via other laws that people converting are harassed. I personally know some who did convert, I feel a bit sad for them but they are not prosecuted, although they are socially shunned. > > so the false claims are yours in the gross exagerations. > > Not that I am pleased with the state of the civil rights in the maghreb or the middle east, but I see no reason to follow the bilous hate filled bigots attacks - this idiocy of excluded middles fallacies and in You Too bigoted reaction… (as if there had been any comparative statements…) > There is no thanks for a duty. > > We can thank you for keeping to your contemptible discussion habits. You can hurl invective and insults all you like, but anyone who reads English can follow how dishonest your posts here are. So first it was just Iran and Saudi Arabia, and you were perfectly content to pretend those are the only Muslim nations with hateful apostasy laws. You knew god damned well how common those laws are in Muslim countries, yet you couldn’t be honest about it. Until I point out other countries that do the same thing and you’re forced to acknowledge how correct I am. Well, gee, thanks. And you try to mislead readers by claiming the laws are from the Middle Ages; which is sort of accurate, in the sense that they’re truly medieval, but you conveniently leave out the fact that those laws are in effect TODAY. And when I capitalize for emphasis to highlight your inaccuracies you scream that you’re victimized by upper case letters. You are truly awesome. Look, we all get that you favor Muslim apostasy laws, which is why you haven’t condemned them here and try to deny or minimize them. We all get that Muslims support those laws, which is why they’re common from Morocco to Indonesia. See the map in Wikipedia. But we westerners are not so stupid that we believe killing someone for converting to Christianity does NOT demonstrate hatred of Christianity. It absolutely does. You can claim my comments here are bigoted all you like, please link to the bigoted remarks I’ve made. You can’t. If Wikipedia’s article showing apostasy laws is inaccurate, please tell me what they’ve gotten wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/49 "2015-11-15T22:50:05Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > But thanks for not junior modding. I guess I didn’t understand how these message boards work; I thought Ramira and I could respond to each other and other posters could still post around us and ignore our conversation if they chose. Actually, no. Other posters shouldn’t need to post _around_ your walls of text. You should be posting in response to what the OP is asking. Your “discussion” is a hijack of this thread, so knock if off. You two are welcome to debate what Islam is or isn’t in an appropriate thread, but this isn’t it. **Ramira** , it remains against the rules to call other posters names outside of the Pit, so please don’t do this again. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/50 "2015-11-15T23:27:07Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Why would you think that? Because of all the hate crimes and violence against muslims after 9/11? Oh wait, that’s right, _ **there wasn’t any!!!** _ Really? Because in my neighborhood a local restaurant owner, a man who had engaged in extensive fund raising for those injured by 9/11, and the families of those killed, who proudly displayed an American flag every day of the year, who had been a US citizen for 30 years and raised his family here, was gunned down in cold blood in 2002 for the “crime” of being a Muslim. Shot dead in his restaurant, in front of his family, by a bigot. Granted the plural of anecdote is not data, but your assertion that no such thing happened is negated by the death of someone I knew for several years. Not to mention all the well documented other reports of the same. I still miss the man, who had built a halal restaurant to serve the local Muslim community but who also took equal pains to make _everyone_ feel welcome there. I’m happy to say his sons carry on his legacy, but they still miss their father every day. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/51 "2015-11-15T23:56:12Z")
I don’t know about hate crimes, but there was certainly a lot of anti-Muslim vitriol spewed around after 9/11. I was in school at the time, and a professor got in serious trouble for the hate speech he spontaneously unleashed in the middle of class one day. Many of the students at the school were Egyptian and had Arabic names. More than a few suddenly started adopting Christian names. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/52 "2015-11-16T00:07:05Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Why would you think that? Because of all the hate crimes and violence against muslims after 9/11? Oh wait, that’s right, _ **there wasn’t any!!!** _ [Sure](https://www.splcenter.org/news/2011/03/29/anti-muslim-incidents-sept-11-2001). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/53 "2015-11-16T01:44:21Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Yes ordinary people do not hate the other religions. > > Your stupid comments dragging in the Saudis, who are the extreme and small minority in the world of Islam, is the usual hating. Well here’s the problem. There is an exponential amount of Islamic terrorism going on around the world and it’s hardly limited to Saudi Arabia. No other religion goes as bat-shit-crazy over petty cartoons or threats of tearing a piece of paper than Muslims. The hatred stems from a disproportionate and irrational problem with blasphemy. The majority of Muslims live in Muslim-majority countries where these laws exist. It’s not an isolated mentality. There is the real hatred. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/54 "2015-11-16T04:44:58Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Hating the religion is not the same as hating the people who follow it. It is an important distinction to make. That’s a very noble concept, and I wish it were true for all people. In practice, though, most people I encounter who hate a particular religion also demonize its adherents. There’s a good example right now, what with a number of people advocating killing Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/55 "2015-11-16T04:46:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well here’s the problem. There is an exponential amount of Islamic terrorism going on around the world and it’s hardly limited to Saudi Arabia. No other religion goes as bat-shit-crazy over petty cartoons or threats of tearing a piece of paper than Muslims. The hatred stems from a disproportionate and irrational problem with blasphemy. The majority of Muslims live in Muslim-majority countries where these laws exist. It’s not an isolated mentality. There is the real hatred. How do you explain those folks that go “bat-shit-crazy” over “flag desecration” of the US flag? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/56 "2015-11-16T04:54:15Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > How do you explain those folks that go “bat-shit-crazy” over “flag desecration” of the US flag? There’s nothing to explain since people generally don’t get killed when someone draws a cartoon of the American flag. That’s not a very good analogy. **Magiver** : “Exponential” is a tern to describe the rate of change of something, not the amount of that thing. Just saying’… ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/57 "2015-11-16T04:56:24Z")
How about the white, Christian Americans who shoot clinic doctors because they oppose abortion on religious grounds and feel they are doing their god’s work? Or set off bombs at clinics. How is that not a form of terrorism as well? There there were the Irish “troubles” which involved people identifying with two different Christian sects killing bystanders for decades. And that’s just the Christians nutjobs. Let’s not pretend that Muslims have any sort of monopoly on terror, because they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/58 "2015-11-16T05:13:26Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > How do you explain those folks that go “bat-shit-crazy” over “flag desecration” of the US flag? I missed the killings over it. We burn flags in this country on a regular basis as do people in other countries. I don’t recall anyone killing people because somebody suggested they would burn an American flag half way around the world. No religious leader to my knowledge has invoked a death sentence over it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/59 "2015-11-16T05:19:26Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > How about the white, Christian Americans who shoot clinic doctors because they oppose abortion on religious grounds and feel they are doing their god’s work? Or set off bombs at clinics. How is that not a form of terrorism as well? Of course it is a form a terrorism. However all of the abortion killings totaled add up to 8. The difference is the orders of magnitude of dead people involved. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535/60 "2015-11-16T05:29:52Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > How about the white, Christian Americans who shoot clinic doctors because they oppose abortion on religious grounds and feel they are doing their god’s work? Or set off bombs at clinics. How is that not a form of terrorism as well? > > There there were the Irish “troubles” which involved people identifying with two different Christian sects killing bystanders for decades. > > And that’s just the Christians nutjobs. > > Let’s not pretend that Muslims have any sort of monopoly on terror, because they don’t. I guess it’s a good thing that no one here is pretending that then! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-dopers-in-western-countries-do-you-feel-safe/737535.md?page=4)