They are a minority. Their doctrine has always historically been considered incorrect, and it only emerged from its backwards corner when the british support the Ibn Saud against the Ottoman for their narrow interests of the time.
Of course they are trying to spread their hateful views. it is indeed a bad thing for they use their money to propagandize.
of 1.6 billion muslims, yes it is the typical hater approach to drag out the Saudi government as a statement about the muslims in general.
so yes, the usual hating.
Moumtaz, perhaps you can then go find your corner of the ATMB for complaining.
I am not an Iranian nor a citizen of the Iran, so I do not see what the other American bugbear has to do with the 1.6 billion Muslims in general or supposed hatreds.
Of course it is usual that a question to a Muslim about our sense of security in the France becomes an occasion for the hatreds, it does illustrate why we have to have some concerns of safety for the persons who go farther to actions.
The irony of your whining about the construction, “I hate religion x, but not its adherents,” when your co-religionists do the EXACT SAME THING is what makes talking to you so delicious. (So, you don’t want to answer my question about conversion from Islam in Iran, eh? I don’t blame you.)
I would be hesitant, if I were you, to make the argument that there are 1.6 billion Muslims so the behavior of scores of millions of Muslims is irrelevant. One could logically argue from that position that the fear of several million American Muslims for their safety is nothing in light of the over 1.59 billion Muslims who live with no fear at all. When one looks at the numbers, “Muslims” have nothing to fear from Western retaliation, even if several dozen were murdered a day in the west. Of course, one might argue that American Muslims, individually, have the right to not be murdered, but I doubt you would argue that since you don’t think Christians, individually, have the right to proseletyze in Iran or Saudi Arabia.
If you do, you haven’t said so in this thread, you just keep saying the over 100 million Muslims in those countries aren’t enough Muslims to represent the religion.
How many hundreds of millions of Muslims have to engage in hateful behavior before you will actually acknowledge that it is a facet of Islam?
I certainly think hate is too strong a word, but I definitely dislike all religions pretty strongly. I don’t really feel that I have a choice in that. Any widely held beliefs or attitudes which I feel are built on falsehoods are problematic to me. (No doubt, many of my opinions fall into this category, but I was able to identify them definitively, I would immediately drop them.)
I do acknowledge that the disproportionate anti-islamic sentiment we often hear is to a large extent fueled by racism, political ignorance and deliberate propaganda. I can’t honestly say I wouIdn’t prefer for everyone to wake up tomorrow without any supernatural beliefs at all though.
I’d even go one step further and say I find something uniquely unpalatable about monotheism. Perhaps this is because I grew up surrounded by it and feel I understand its darker aspects better than those of other faiths.
As I say, I wouldn’t myself choose the word hate, but if someone accused me of hating Islam (as distinct from Muslims) I don’t think I could honestly offer a particularly robust denial.
Does that make me a bigot? If so, what do I do about it?
Erm … Grotonian?
I wandered into this thread because I was actually interested in the topic of the OP and wanted to hear the perspectives of actual Mulsim dopers or people with close experience.
Not to junior mod, but it would be real nice to stick to the topic. Or, you know, maybe let people with relevant experience express their views without getting all up in their face.
Just sayin’.
Was at a coffee shop this a.m., noticed a young woman wearing a head scarf - apologies for my ignorance at not knowing the correct term or what religion it signifies. But it crossed my mind to wonder whether she had thought anything when donning it this a.m.
Would be difficult to have the sign of something you believe make it convenient for people to stereotype you.
I have great sympathy for nonfanatical believers. If it were me, I’d consider losing the scarf. But I don’t believe in any god(s).
Are you joking me? What is relevant to the OP of Ramira saying, “we Muslims get scared when westerners say the same things we Muslims do”? That she doesn’t acknowledge that Muslims hate other religions doesn’t change the fact that they do. It’s official policy in many Muslim countries, for Christ’s sake!
But thanks for not junior modding. I guess I didn’t understand how these message boards work; I thought Ramira and I could respond to each other and other posters could still post around us and ignore our conversation if they chose. But apparently, if a Muslim posts nonsense it becomes a hijack if she is challenged and the board will not accept posts directly responding to the op. Glad you set me straight on how this works.
Why would you think that? Because of all the hate crimes and violence against muslims after 9/11? Oh wait, that’s right, there wasn’t any!!!
I think I’d be more worried in France, a country where soccer hooligans regularly call foreign black football players ‘monkeys’ and derisively throw bananas on the field at them…
Irony? No there is no irony at all. What is ironic you think playing bigotted “gotcha” pulling out the Iran and the Saudi arabia, is a statement about all the muslims or even any such thing as relevant to the subject of whether we have concern for bigot-reaction against us, the moderate and anti-takfiri.
Of course some co religionists do (of course you drag out the American betes noires of the Iran and the Saudi arabia, representing the extreme examples of the muslim majority countries governments), here you again do the bigot thing of sweeping generalization. Why a muslim who has no roots in the Saudi arabia or the Iran and is not of their sects has anything to respond to …
So in fact you illustrate exactly where the Western muslim’s concerns come from - the bigots who deliberately smear the minority with the bad practices from some countries (from which they do not even come and do not even share the specific sect with, like screaming the abuse at the Anglican for something the Baptist believe).
People like you are why we have to have concern as the minorities.
The subject of this thread is not the Iran nor the conversion or not, and I am not a Shia nor an Iranian, so I am not going to play idiotic bigot games. It makes as much sense to attack a British Christian for the practices of one of your bizarre American sects as to play this idiot bigot game.
I would be embarrassed to be making bigotted arguments and attacks in a thread entitled “Muslim Dopers in Western countries: do you feel safe?”
But apparently you lack any self-awareness.
Your colossal bigot Straw man of course is wrong.
All this is is an effort to silence.
to indicate concern about a situaiton in the France for example is not to say ANYTHIING about a situation in the Morocco or the United states. It is grossly illogical and the only reason to try to confuse them is for the justification of hte bigotry via “they are as bad” using They in its usual bigot way where it is All the Muslims.
I acknowledge nothig of such Falsehoods, but I do see the game of the Justification of the bigotry.
Your barging in and asserting in sweeping fashion about the Muslims and dragging in the Iran and the Saudi Arabia is idiot bigot knee jerking. It makes as much sense as in a conversation about the sentiments of the Caribbean British about discrimination to dag in the American problems…
Hatred of other religions?
In the Saudi arabia, yes, but it is not “many” countries that teach and institutionalise such things as teaching hatred of the other religions. The contrary. Of course the Saudi case is a dictatorial monarchy that took power violently and is well known for instrumentalising its apparentence to the Wahhabites in order to keep its power, and their actions are about their keeping power and keeping the Wahhabite movement, even in the Peninsula not majority, on their side for power purposes. But this has as much to do with the experience of the French muslim of the Maghrebine or the sub-Saharan origin, who is generally Sufi, as the snake-handling churches of the USA have to do with the Anglicans.
Laws against the prosletyzing, it is not hatred (and as has been mentioned such laws exist even in the EU as in the Greece, I do not see the Greeks hating the Roman Catholics or the others, but their Orthodox church does distrust them). The law against this in the Maghreb, which is the religion neutral in the Code, was in fact originally in its initial textes written by the French during the colonization. Of course the motivations were the peace of the colon rule.
I am not bothered by a neutral law forbidding prosletyzing generally, in keep liberty of the appartenance.
in any case, I have answered the actual OP and that is enough for this, I have no interest in some stupid attacks around the practices of the Iran and the Saudi arabia, any more than a British would feel like defending George Bush. Basta.
Your disingenuousness is, as usual, really fun and totally awesome. Our friends at Wikipedia claim there are FIFTEEN Muslim countries, representing hundreds of millions of Muslims, where it is a crime to convert a Muslim to Christianity:
Let me guess, this has nothing to do with Islam, does it? It has nothing to do with Sharia, does it? This is all a misunderstanding caused by French colonists and the King of Saudi Arabia, isn’t it? Islam doesn’t recognize the crime of apostasy, does it?
Wow. You poor Muslims, just trying to live your lives and love all religions equally and you’ve got Wikipedia printing the most baseless libels against you. Wikipedia just makes up lies about apostasy laws in 15 Muslim countries, doesn’t it?
Except it isn’t just Iran and Saudi Arabia, is it? It’s almost all Muslim countries, isn’t it? You can claim all you want that the construction, “I hate religion x, but not its adherents” offends Muslims; but it’s quite obvious that that is exactly what Muslims pull when they are the majority in a country.
But, yeah, this might be a good time for you to peace out. Deuces.
No disingenuousness at all unlike your distortions and dragging in unrelated topics.
Banning proslytizing is not hatred, and even in the EU it is not uncommon:
Whether these laws need to exist is another thing.
In fact the term is not used in the Quran, and there is no clear Quranic law on this. There are traditions from the medieval period.
But this is neither here nor there as it has nothing to do with the subject (other than illustrating exactly the risk the religious minority faces with the hate mongerers).
Again the Bigot Game of sweeping broad brush attacks on an entire group.
Of course I made no statements other than responding about the question of concern.
Your gross distortions and irrelevancies aside.
Your habits of negative and tedious discourse stay the same, here, ATMB… whatever.
Banning proselytizing is not hating other religions, not if a muslim country does it, not if the Greeks or another EU country do it. If the muslim or the christian is free to pursue individual practice, I see no hatred, this is an idiotic straw man.
Ramira, I’ve been sitting quietly appreciating your contributions to this thread and all the Muslim threads you have participated in. I as many others here I’m sure happen to think you bring a lot to the table when it comes to fighting ignorance against Islam.
I am not Muslim, and can’t tell if the local Muslims are worried. I know they were after 9/11. (I am in the US.)
A Turkish restaurant had just opened town. It got good reviews. Then 9/11 happened. They bought a giant US flag and hung in their front window. The intended message was clear. “We are on your side.” It worked. The place has since expanded, and their window once again has Turkish and stuff.
There seem to be a lot of Muslims around these days, and most of them are just ordinary citizens going about their business. I hope they don’t feel unsafe. But I think it’s more dangerous in France right now than in the US.
I do not think it is very dangerous in the France, but there is the hateful fringes (yes of both sides to avoid any doubts). So worry is there, and I worry about more negative actions backfiring like the ban on the hidjab.
and the discrimination in getting the employment getting worse, that is a concern, with the France keeping a blind eye to this for decades.