# Muslim "honor killings" protected under freedom of religion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 30, 2003, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-honor-killings-protected-under-freedom-of-religion/204615 "2003-09-30T02:40:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-honor-killings-protected-under-freedom-of-religion/204615/61 "2003-10-01T12:29:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*That’s not a valid criticism. Why don’t we just legalize honor killings? \*\* Back atcha. Why **DON’T** we just legalize honor killings, TVAA? You’ll find it’s easier to ask hard questions than to answer them; unless you’ve got an answer prepared, I’m not sure it’s fair for you to sit back and ask other people. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-honor-killings-protected-under-freedom-of-religion/204615/62 "2003-10-01T12:31:33Z")
But that’s precisely my point. The vast majority of people do not have a genuine code of ethics: a set of standards by which actions can be judged. Instead, they use a list of things that are considered ethical or unethical. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-honor-killings-protected-under-freedom-of-religion/204615/63 "2003-10-01T12:34:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > \*\*The article indicates there is conflict in Jordan on this issue, but that conflict also implies a strong base of support – in the U.S. or the U.K. there’d be damned little support and the brothers would be almost universally regarded as murderous fiends. > > So I do not at all buy your notion that honor killings are not widely supported among Muslims. > > Furthermore, short of honor killings there are honor beatings. I personally knew a woman whose sister married a Muslim man and had to go on the lam after she separated from him and learned that her cousins would be looking for her to beat her up fro doing so. I tend to wonder how much violence against women goes on behind closed doors in Muslim countries. > \*\* I read the article, and it’s just a wee bit short on demographics. I can cite articles in which fired American employees shot up their workplaces here in the US; does that mean there’s wide support for killing your boss amongst Protestants? Your personal anecdote is horrifying, sure, as is my anecdote about a woman I know who’s hiding from her fundamentalist Christian husband out of fear that he’ll kill her. Makes you wonder how much violence against women goes on behind closed doors in the United States, doesn’t it? There may significantly more violence against women in Muslim countries. This article doesn’t offer such evidence. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-honor-killings-protected-under-freedom-of-religion/204615/64 "2003-10-01T12:36:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*But that’s precisely my point. The vast majority of people do not have a genuine code of ethics: a set of standards by which actions can be judged. Instead, they use a list of things that are considered ethical or unethical. \*\* Cite? Or are you just describing your personal experience here? What do YOU use? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-honor-killings-protected-under-freedom-of-religion/204615/65 "2003-10-01T12:43:16Z")
Still, the answer to the OP remains the same – “honor killing” is not a protected freedom-of-religion issue AS THE LEGAL SYSTEM STANDS while circumcision of male infants is considered no big deal AS THE LEGAL SYSTEM STANDS. Does that leave us unprotected from a change in the societal consensus that would lead to the legalization of some Bad Thing\? Yes. Is there an objective/subjective, absolute/relative, individual/collective, universal/particular set of ethics and rights that would lead us to identify the Bad Things\ in the absence of either a legal (civil or religious) system or a societal consensus (whether based on tradition, reason or emotional outrage)? Different question. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-honor-killings-protected-under-freedom-of-religion/204615/66 "2003-10-01T13:49:18Z")
The whole point of asking questions is to _learn_ the answers. If we need to have answers prepared before we ask the questions, how can we ever learn anything new? I’m disappointed in you, **DanielWithrow**. You should know better than this. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-honor-killings-protected-under-freedom-of-religion/204615/67 "2003-10-01T15:10:28Z")
**Evil Captor** : I’m not sure how you got from this… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > There is a strong Muslim tradition of support for honor killings in some countries, apparently. To this… > [@](#): > > So I do not at all buy your notion that honor killings are not widely supported among Muslims. First of all that spousal killings is a _Muslim_ tradition ( i.e. religious ) per se is a tough argument to make. A very legalistic faith, Islam tends to frown heavily on most extrajudicial acts, period. That spousal abuse is far too common in many, probably most Muslim countries ( as it is in Third World generally, see “dowry killings” in India for example, mostly in certain Hindu subpopulations ), appears certain. However I have never seen figures citing “honor killings” as being exceptionally widespread throughout the **entire** Muslim world. Pakistan may be the worst case ( many, though a minority, of the victims of honor killings in that country involving men, probably mostly the result of a “bloodfeud” mentality ), but Jordan is pretty bad: _Meanwhile, police reports indicate that between 25 and 30 women are killed annually (one-third of the murders in Jordan ) in the name of family honor, making it the most common type of murder of women in the country._ From here: [http://iwraw.igc.org/publications/countries/jordan.htm#\_ednref44](http://iwraw.igc.org/publications/countries/jordan.htm#_ednref44) That in a country of ~5.5 million. In 1998 there were 1,320 women murdered by intimate partners in the United States ( cite: [http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/ipv.pdf](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/ipv.pdf) ), out of a population of 270 million. So the rate for Jordan is worse, but not drastically so ( if Jordan was the size of the U.S. the killings would add up to ~1,470/year ). Pretty damn bad, but worth putting in perspective. ( By the way, I’ll note that _overall_ Jordan’s murder rate is much lower than that of the U.S. ). Contrast that with Morocco: _“Honor crimes,” a euphemism that refers to violent assaults with intent to commit murder against a female for her perceived immodest or defiant behavior remained extremely rare. However, two cases of killings did occur in March. In Skhirat the father of 17-year old Hanna Bousalhi slit her throat and stabbed her for allegedly having a relationship with a male classmate. He was sentenced to 20 years in prison. In Sale the husband of Fatna Kriaa was convicted of killing her for allegedly having an affair with his cousin._ Egypt: _“Honor killings” (a man murdering a female for her perceived lack of chastity) were not common._ Or for that matter Tunisia, whose laws were to some extent the opposite of Jordan’s lenient take on spousal abuse: _Nonetheless, there are stiff penalties for spousal abuse. Both the fine and imprisonment for battery or violence committed by a spouse or family member are double those for the same crimes committed by an individual not related to the victim._ The preceeding quotes taken from the 2002 U.S. State Dept Report on Human Rights. So to go from “strong Muslim tradition of support for killings in some countries” ( even if we could agree that it is a _Muslim_ tradition ) to the notion that honor killings are widely supported by Muslims generally seems a stretch. _Furthermore, short of honor killings there are honor beatings. I personally knew a woman whose sister married a Muslim man and had to go on the lam after she separated from him and learned that her cousins would be looking for her to beat her up fro doing so. I tend to wonder how much violence against women goes on behind closed doors in Muslim countries._ Quite a bit, I suspect. But it is not a problem at all unique to Muslim countries. Even our own is not immune as the above linked DOJ report reveals ( thankfully it appears to be declining in the U.S. ). > [@](#): > > . Denying it leaves your arguments subject to attack by a brutal gang of facts. Sure but overreaching can result in the same ;). - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-honor-killings-protected-under-freedom-of-religion/204615/68 "2003-10-01T15:20:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*The whole point of asking questions is to _learn_ the answers. > > If we need to have answers prepared before we ask the questions, how can we ever learn anything new? > > I’m disappointed in you, **DanielWithrow**. You should know better than this. \*\* Yes, and I’m asking YOU for YOUR answers to these questions. Your disappointment is as bizarre as it is irrelevant. And you’ve still not answered my questions about whether you think cultural aspects ever actually determine an act’s moral status. Off to read Tamerlane’s presumably more substantial post. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-honor-killings-protected-under-freedom-of-religion/204615/69 "2003-10-01T15:34:54Z")
There is as yet no answer to these questions. To resolve the debate, we must reduce the issue to its most basic components, and there is no way to do that but to determine which of our assumptions we do not consider questionable. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-honor-killings-protected-under-freedom-of-religion/204615/70 "2003-10-01T15:38:05Z")
So which do YOU not consider questionable? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-honor-killings-protected-under-freedom-of-religion/204615/71 "2003-10-01T15:51:12Z")
Internal beliefs do not justify external actions that impact others without their consent… Then add all the necessary caveats. Maybe, **TVAA** , a new OP would address this better? ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-honor-killings-protected-under-freedom-of-religion/204615/72 "2003-10-01T19:59:04Z")
**TVAA** , not sure where you’re going. I hesitate to raise again the topic of circumcision, but I must note that it’s A) perfectly legal, and B) practiced by whoever wants to regardless of culture or religion(although it is a cultural and religious item for Jews and Moslems). Definitely material for another OP. As for Honour killings, they are a global problem and not specific to Islam, though it doesn’t surprise me to see the standard attacks based on ignorance. **Tamerlane** is far too gracious. > [@](#): > > [Human Rights Watch - Violence Against Women and “Honor” Crimes (from 57th Session of the Commission on Human Rights)](http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/04/un_oral12_0405.htm) > > Honor crimes are not specific to any religion, nor are they limited to any one region of the world. Human Rights Watch has worked on this issue in the Americas, Asia, the Middle East, and North Africa. Although there is increased awareness of this issue, states remain reluctant to take the necessary steps to end impunity for honor killings. For example, although the Supreme Court of Brazil struck down “defense of honor” as a justification for murder of a wife in 1991, ten years later, courts still fail to prosecute and convict men who claim they kill their wives because of their alleged infidelity. > [@](#): > > [BBC: Police Delve nto Honour Killings](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3151898.stm) > > He said “honour killings” cut across many different religious faiths and were not limited to Muslims. > > “This is not religious, this is cultural, and it’s so deep-rooted, it’s in the way we are brought up, and in the expectations put on us from childhood.” > > Mr Gidoomal said he hoped the issue could be debated in citizenship classes proposed by the government for immigrants to the UK. > > Dr Nazand Begikhani from Kurdish Women Action Against Honour Killings rejected the suggestion made by many - including Judge Neil Denison when passing sentence on Yones on Monday - that “honour killings” were the result of a clash between “traditional” and Western values. > > “It is not about the clash between different cultures… ‘honour killings’ are as old as the patriarchy system,” she told BBC One’s Breakfast. > > “Some societies have gone through change and transformation - some haven’t. These societies which are still limited by codes and rules - that’s where this is more in practice.” Attitudes of machismo/strong patriarchy may have something to do with it – it would certainly explain the problem in Brazil. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ea666f/32.png) [@Jimmy1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy1)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-honor-killings-protected-under-freedom-of-religion/204615/73 "2003-10-01T20:49:45Z")
In Employment Division v Smith Justice Scalia, writing for the majority, clearly articulated the controlling rule of law. A law religiously neutral on its face and applied generally is constitutional although it burdens a religious practice. State laws prohibiting murder are of this type and thus, there is no violation of the Muslim’s Free Exercise of Religion. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-honor-killings-protected-under-freedom-of-religion/204615/74 "2003-10-01T21:26:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > \*\*I read the article, and it’s just a wee bit short on demographics. I can cite articles in which fired American employees shot up their workplaces here in the US; does that mean there’s wide support for killing your boss amongst Protestants? > > Your personal anecdote is horrifying, sure, as is my anecdote about a woman I know who’s hiding from her fundamentalist Christian husband out of fear that he’ll kill her. Makes you wonder how much violence against women goes on behind closed doors in the United States, doesn’t it? > > Daniel \*\* You can’t compare Muslim honour killings to some freak shootings made by some moron in a Christian country. The fact is, domestic violence is a big problem and I think it is a problem more so in Muslim countries, just because their countries with the exception of lets say Turkey and Malaysia, and to a lesser extent Morrocco and Egypt, the economies and wealth are in a downturn more so than in Western society can affect the state and mood of the populace. When people are frustrated and cannot express their anger in any given form, its usually gonna be the nearest person they explode onto, in this case lashing out at their wives. And what modern day Christians do is in some cases is, far, far less in its extremes than what Muslims do, I’m not saying is Christians have not been as bad as what some Muslims do but we have made strides in combating domestic abuse. If we haven’t I want evidence to support it. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-honor-killings-protected-under-freedom-of-religion/204615/75 "2003-10-01T21:29:00Z")
sorry for the phrasing, it sucks. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-honor-killings-protected-under-freedom-of-religion/204615/76 "2003-10-01T22:28:49Z")
**Tamerlane** On target as usual. However, the numbers cited appear to me to be “official” figures. Would you care to wager that the actual numbers are higher? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-honor-killings-protected-under-freedom-of-religion/204615/77 "2003-10-01T23:39:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tamerlane \* > \*\***First of all that spousal killings is a _Muslim_ tradition ( i.e. religious ) per se is a tough argument to make. A very legalistic faith, Islam tends to frown heavily on most extrajudicial acts, period.** \*\* I wasn’t clear there – I should have made it clear that I was referrring to Muslim CULTURE and not Muslim religion specifically. Like any big religion, islam is full of blapcrap that can be taken either way or any way by those who wish to believe it, and I’m sure that some Muslims point to support for honor kilings in the Koran and others point to condemnation of them in the Koran, so that it is indeed a cultural issue. It’s just that an awful lot of Muslim nations have this little cultural tidbit of honor killings going on. I consider all countries in which Islam is the dominant relgion to have a Muslim culture – practices which are widespread among countries that have Muslim culture and not present in non-Muslim countries. Now, when you say honor killings also occur in non-Muslim countries, you’re right, they do, but I’m betting the vast majority of those killings are of the “found my wife in bed with another man” variety. I’m not sure it’s a pure “honor” killing since there are volumes of sexual jealousy and betrayal present in this case that are not present in other cases. The honor of the killer is of course assaulted in this case, too, but it’s mixed in with a lot of other things, eh? What seems to be unique to some Muslim countries is the case where male relatives kill daughters or sisters or nieces or cousins or what have you for behaving in a manner that is perceived to bring shame on the family, such as by not marrying the right guy. Obviously, this is not so much driven by sexual jealousy and/or betrayal. It’s more purely a matter of staining the families honor, by my standards a pretty abstract reason for killing. It’s more akin to the Hindu practice of burning a widow to death when her husband dies, which also lacks a strong element of sexual jealous or betrayal and devolves more on personal and family honor, though I don’t think sexual shame is a part of it. If anything the Hindu practice is more abstract than the Muslim one. **That spousal abuse is far too common in many, probably most Muslim countries ( as it is in Third World generally, see “dowry killings” in India for example, mostly in certain Hindu subpopulations ), appears certain.** Is it your intention to argue that Muslim countries generally have about the same amount of honor killings and general abuse against women as other countries, but that they are widely perceived as having more due to … misinformation? Something along those lines? **However I have never seen figures citing “honor killings” as being exceptionally widespread throughout the entire Muslim world. Pakistan may be the worst case ( many, though a minority, of the victims of honor killings in that country involving men, probably mostly the result of a “bloodfeud” mentality ), but Jordan is pretty bad:** Lemme help you out. First of all, a lot of honor killing in Palestine: [http://www.contrelislam.org/islam/femmes/honorkilling.htm](http://www.contrelislam.org/islam/femmes/honorkilling.htm) though as noted the figures are incomplete because honor killings are considered “a private matter” and hence are not publicized. The notion that murder of any kind is a private matter is, of course, an interesting one. In fact, your post seems to have overlooked an important fact about honor killings in the Muslim world, which is that since they are widely regarded as a private matter, accurate statistics on them are VERY hard to come by. In fact, the sources I found say that crime statistics of any kind are hard to come by in Muslim countries. Here’s an example: [http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/chastity.htm](http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/chastity.htm) here’s a really relevant quote from that page: > [@](#): > > mong all Arab countries, only Jordan publishes what are considered credible crime statistics, so the extent of honor killing is difficult to gauge. Often the killings are hushed up, experts say, and disguised as accidental deaths. And, most often, the killings occur outside the big cities, far from government scrutiny. > > Except in Jordan, government officials tend to treat the issue as taboo, at least in response to queries from foreign journalists. > > But the statistics show that honor killings regularly claim 25 lives a year in Jordan alone, about one in four homicides in a country of just four million people, according to Jordanian officials. > > In Egypt, which last reported crime statistics in 1995, a Government report counted 52 honor killings out of 819 slayings. In Yemen, with a population of 16 million, Mohammed Ba Obaid, who heads the department of Women’s Studies in Sanaa University, said his surveys found that more than 400 women were killed for reasons of honor in 1997, the last year for which research is complete. > > “The culture does not allow any other choice for males,” said Dr. Obaid, who attended the recent conference in Jordan and called the figures “very alarming.” > > The killings are also known in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and other Persian Gulf countries, and among Arabs in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. The experts say it would be safe to estimate that the number of Arab women killed for reasons of honor amounts to hundreds each year. > > But in most countries, activists and human-rights groups say, most killers receive light punishment, when they are prosecuted at all. Arab judges, who are almost always male, are generally allowed great latitude in sentencing, and most tend to see honor as a circumstance akin to self-defense. > > “Nobody can really want to kill his wife or daughter or sister,” said Mohammed Ajjarmeh, chief judge of the High Criminal Court in Jordan. “But sometimes circumstances force him to do this. Sometimes, it’s society that forces him to do this, because the people won’t forget. Sometimes, there are two victims – the murdered and the murderer.” > > That sense of empathy is built into judicial procedures. > > An explicit exemption in Jordanian law, for example, allows a man who kills a female relative surprised in an act of adultery or fornication to be judged “not guilty” of murder. Another loophole sought out by most defendants allows leniency for those who can persuade the court that their sense of lost honor caused them to act in an uncontrollable rage. Seems to directly contradict the notion that honor killings are rare and not at all tolerated in Muslim society. Note, too, that the Jordanian exception applies to “a female relative” not just a “wife.” **But it is not a problem at all unique to Muslim countries. Even our own is not immune as the above linked DOJ report reveals ( thankfully it appears to be declining in the U.S. ).** As noted, “honor killings” here are different in nature. We are not talking apples and oranges. **Sure but overreaching can result in the same ;).** I do not think I over-reached nearly as much as you seem to think I did. If at all. There are some people who speculate that the number for Jordan is ridiculously low, that the real annual numbers of honor killings run into the hundreds if not the thousands. In that case, Jordan rises far above the U.S. murder rate. Once source cites 400 honor killings in yemen in one year. that’s … remarkable. And not in a good way. I can’t claim such numbers as absolute fact, but the widespread notation that the real numbers of honor killings is cloaked by the notion that they are a “private family affair” is a clear indication that there may well be a lot of murder going on that we can’t see at present. In short, after doing a little research I feel very comfortable with my initial post. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-honor-killings-protected-under-freedom-of-religion/204615/78 "2003-10-02T00:03:20Z")
**tamerlane** , How is the rationale for the killings framed? I mean if I was to ask a fella who wanted to kill his daughter/cousin/sister in this context, “Why?” what would he say? thanks, SimonX ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-honor-killings-protected-under-freedom-of-religion/204615/79 "2003-10-02T00:12:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bizzwire \* > **Tamerlane** > On target as usual. However, the numbers cited appear to me to be “official” figures. Would you care to wager that the actual numbers are higher? It’s pretty likely, I’m sure. Doesn’t really negate my point, though. At triple the actual “honor killing” rate that is reported for Jordan, the level of intimate-related female homicides would be ( may well be ) pretty horrendous, maybe 3-4 times the U.S. ( overall homicide rate would still be far lower than the U.S., however, as I doubt there is nearly as much motivation to cover up male homicides ). But by the same token, say we go all out and inflate the “honor killing” rate by **100x** for Morocco ( i.e. from 2 to 200 ), we would _still_ have a rate not that much higher than that of the United States. But nobody is saying the murder of spouses ( daughters, nieces, what-have-you ) is widely supported by Americans. Let alone extrapolating to say that high murder rates of female relatives in the United States, means English-speaking people in general widely support such actions. The issue isn’t whether there are problems in Jordan, Pakistan, indeed the Third World generally, with spousal/familial murders of women. There most certainly are. Nor is the issue even that some of those countries legally soft-pedal on that issue. Jordan for one certainly does. The issue is whether it is a) widely condoned by _Islam_ as a matter of faith and whether it is b) unique to and widely endorsed throughout the entire the Muslim world as something right and proper. From where I’m sitting that that does not appear to be the case. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-honor-killings-protected-under-freedom-of-religion/204615/80 "2003-10-02T00:31:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > **tamerlane** , > > How is the rationale for the killings framed? I mean if I was to ask a fella who wanted to kill his daughter/cousin/sister in this context, “Why?” what would he say? “They dishonored the me/the family”. That probably sums it up 80-90% of the time. Machismo, puritannical ntions about sex, issues of patriarchal ( in the broad sense ) control, even economic issues ( not necessarily just dowries, but also clan/tribal/familial alliances being put into jeopardy by “stubborn” brides ). All can feed into such things. And some of those, of course, can be half-assed justified by referring to religious mores - i.e. Islam enjoins modesty and a women having sex with her boyfriend can be defined as immodest or Islam enjoins obediance to ones parents and refusing to marry a chosen spouse consitutes disobediance. - Tamerlane [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-honor-killings-protected-under-freedom-of-religion/204615.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-honor-killings-protected-under-freedom-of-religion/204615.md?page=5)