# Muslim Immigrants Rounded Up--any reason I shouldn't be disgusted in my govt.? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 19, 2002, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-immigrants-rounded-up-any-reason-i-shouldnt-be-disgusted-in-my-govt/143881 "2002-12-19T20:23:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-immigrants-rounded-up-any-reason-i-shouldnt-be-disgusted-in-my-govt/143881/1 "2002-12-19T20:23:34Z")
[http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20021219/wl\_nm/attack\_immigration\_dc\_4](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20021219/wl_nm/attack_immigration_dc_4) > [@](#): > > LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Hundreds of Iranian and other Middle East citizens were in southern California jails on Wednesday after coming forward to comply with a new rule to register with immigration authorities only to wind up handcuffed and behind bars. > > Shocked and frustrated Islamic and immigrant groups estimate that more than 500 people have been arrested in Los Angeles, neighboring Orange County and San Diego in the past three days under a new nationwide anti-terrorism program. Some unconfirmed reports put the figure as high as 1,000. Can anyone give me a reason why I shouldn’t be totally disgusted with my own government? as they note: > [@](#): > > “Terrorists most likely wouldn’t come to the INS to register…” And while, granted, they probably don’t have current green cards/visas… > [@](#): > > The Iranian protesters said many of those detained were victims of official delays in processing visa and green card requests. …I don’t believe that anyone who voluntarily comes in to register, current green card or no, is a real flight risk. Take all of their info. and let them go. If you’re planning to deport them (though I’m appalled at the particulars of this mass detainment, I can’t say I’m generally opposed to deporting illegal immigrants), give them a chance to get their affairs in order. Don’t just toss them in a cell without warning. > [@](#): > > One Syrian man said he went to register in Orange County with a dozen friends. He was the only one to come out of the INS office. “All my friends are inside right now,” M.M. Trapici, 45, told reporters. “I have to visit the family for each one today. Most of them have small kids.” ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-immigrants-rounded-up-any-reason-i-shouldnt-be-disgusted-in-my-govt/143881/2 "2002-12-19T20:33:04Z")
Where does it say that the people rounded up were all Muslim? Although there probably are some cases where people were detained due to INS snafus, the reason why the people were detained is that **they were in violation of their visas and were here illegally.** Would you prefer the INS got warrants and broke down their doors to arrest them? If it was another country and the police found out you were in violation of your visa, do you think you’d receive drastically different treatment? ---
**Author:** ![Saen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Saen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saen)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-immigrants-rounded-up-any-reason-i-shouldnt-be-disgusted-in-my-govt/143881/3 "2002-12-19T20:38:59Z")
> [@](#): > > INS spokesman Arcaute said those arrested had violated immigration laws, overstayed their visas, or were wanted for crimes. Is the procedure any different than when the authorities discover individuals with similar offenses? If it is then you have a right to be discusted. If not, then being slectively disgusted is a bit of an overreaction. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-immigrants-rounded-up-any-reason-i-shouldnt-be-disgusted-in-my-govt/143881/4 "2002-12-19T20:47:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mojo \* > \*\*Where does it say that the people rounded up were all Muslim? > > Although there probably are some cases where people were detained due to INS snafus, the reason why the people were detained is that **they were in violation of their visas and were here illegally.** Would you prefer the INS got warrants and broke down their doors to arrest them? If it was another country and the police found out you were in violation of your visa, do you think you’d receive drastically different treatment? \*\* I think 90% of INS’ problems would be solved if they processed applications within a reasonable period of time, say 60 days, and had records systems (computerized and otherwise) that actually made it feasible to retrieve information reliably and quickly. As things stand now, many applications take INS a year or more to adjudicate. Here in Chicago, a friend of mine filed a petition for her husband, a Slovenian citizen; 2+ years and one kid later, and they’re still waiting for his green card. He’s in valid status because he’s still working on his Ph.D., but if he’d graduated, he’d have technically been illegal all this time through INS’ failure to adjudicate his petition in a timely manner. Nobody cares about him, because he’s not a citizen of a country on “the list,” but what if he were Lebanese? I suspect the same is true with a fair number of those detained; they’d be legal already if INS got its own house in order. Eva Luna, Immigration Paralegal ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-immigrants-rounded-up-any-reason-i-shouldnt-be-disgusted-in-my-govt/143881/5 "2002-12-19T20:48:03Z")
Hey, it’s almost Christmas. Even Ann Coulter has to get SOME stocking stuffers. ---
**Author:** ![MrTuffPaws](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@MrTuffPaws](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrTuffPaws)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-immigrants-rounded-up-any-reason-i-shouldnt-be-disgusted-in-my-govt/143881/6 "2002-12-19T20:52:23Z")
Why is the Fed’s timing so horrid. Sure, let us officially call persons of South Asian decent in to the INS office and arrest them just before a manufactured excuse for a war is sited. Just how many of those persons do you think would have shown up if they were in violation of anything but their visas? Considering the red tape of renewing a visa, it is not surprising that hundreds of them came in. This is headed for great debates BTW. ---
**Author:** ![MrTuffPaws](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@MrTuffPaws](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrTuffPaws)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-immigrants-rounded-up-any-reason-i-shouldnt-be-disgusted-in-my-govt/143881/7 "2002-12-19T20:59:47Z")
Apos: Holy cow. I just spit a rolo at my monitor. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-immigrants-rounded-up-any-reason-i-shouldnt-be-disgusted-in-my-govt/143881/8 "2002-12-19T21:03:57Z")
Well, yes, we should be disgusted. Not that rounding up illegals from nations where terrorists come from is such a bad idea- it is just that we are doing it in an unfair manner. Where did most of the terrorist come from? Saudi Arabia. What nation is NOT included in the registration requirement? … Guess. Now, if all the nations that have supplied terrorists were included (argueably we’d have to include Eire), and it applied only to “illegals”- well, I’d say it was a “distasteful nessesity”. I also agree with Eva- the INS really needs to get efficient, that would help a lot, and add to the fairness. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-immigrants-rounded-up-any-reason-i-shouldnt-be-disgusted-in-my-govt/143881/9 "2002-12-19T21:10:50Z")
The “list” currently includes citizens of Iran, Iraq, Libya, Syria and Sudan who were born on or before November 15, 1986 and who were admitted to the United States on or before September 10, 2002 and will remain in the United States until at least December 16, 2002. Their registration deadline is December 16, 2002. On November 22, 2002, INS added citizens or nationals of Afghanistan, Algeria, Bahrain, Eritrea, Lebanon, Morocco, North Korea, Oman, Qatar, Somalia, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates, and Yemen, and just added Pakistan and Saudi nationals. (Armenians were aded by mistake and then removed; see my GQ thread.) Asylees, asylum applicants, permanent residents, diplomats, and U.S. citizens are exempt from registration. Other dual citizens (i.e. Canadian/Iranians and the like) are NOT exempt. Hope this clears things up somewhat (yeah, right!). ---
**Author:** ![jane11e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@jane11e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jane11e)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-immigrants-rounded-up-any-reason-i-shouldnt-be-disgusted-in-my-govt/143881/10 "2002-12-19T21:19:32Z")
The reasons why people are being detained include such terrible immigration violations as not notifying the INS of a change of address within 10 days of moving through the filing of Form AR-11. This applies to everyone in the US who is not a citizen. I work in the field of immigration, and I know that people are being detained for not meeting this AR-11 requirement, which has been in the books for many years but has only recently been enforced at the will of the INS. As far as a broader pattern of reasons why people have been detained, what their profiles are, etc., this information is classified. So it’s anybody’s guess. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-immigrants-rounded-up-any-reason-i-shouldnt-be-disgusted-in-my-govt/143881/11 "2002-12-19T21:25:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eva Luna \* > **I think 90% of INS’ problems would be solved if they processed applications within a reasonable period of time, say 60 days, and had records systems (computerized and otherwise) that actually made it feasible to retrieve information reliably and quickly.** I agree with you. A coworker married a girl from Venezuela over a year and a half ago and from what he tells me is still jumping through hoops to get her naturalized (if that’s the correct term). In cases where the violation is due to problems on the INSes part I think there should be some consideration given. But that’s a lot different than “being disugusted with my government for rounding up Muslims”. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-immigrants-rounded-up-any-reason-i-shouldnt-be-disgusted-in-my-govt/143881/12 "2002-12-19T21:33:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Saen \* > \*\*Is the procedure any different than when the authorities discover individuals with similar offenses? \*\* People overstay their visas while waiting for the INS to process the paperwork all the friggin’ time. The INS has a well-deserved reputation for being slow, incompetent & inefficient - these are the people who issued visas to Mohammed Atta six months after 9/11 and claimed that no actual errors were committed, remember ? If arresting everyone who showed up at an INS office with incorrect paperwork was SOP, obviously noone with malice aforethought would have reacted to a letter asking them to show up. And now they expect us to believe that this specific group has a much higher rate of non-compliance with the rules ? Sounds like selective enforcement to me. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-immigrants-rounded-up-any-reason-i-shouldnt-be-disgusted-in-my-govt/143881/13 "2002-12-19T21:37:31Z")
The BBC ran the story this morning: [Mass arrests of Muslims in LA](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2589317.stm) I’m sure that’s doing wonders for our how the rest of the world perceives the U.S. The lack of coverage here isn’t real comforting either. ---
**Author:** ![Saen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Saen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saen)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-immigrants-rounded-up-any-reason-i-shouldnt-be-disgusted-in-my-govt/143881/14 "2002-12-19T21:51:28Z")
Well then, by all means, let the Illegal imigrants free. And if there is another Atta in the bunch at least we can satisfied that the INS is not arbitrary. We either want the INS to be more effecient and a tool in the war on terrorism or we don’t. The Atta example is a red herring. Or did they discover him being there illegaly and let him walk out? But back to the OP. If it is shown that they are just “rounding up muslim imigrants” to look like they are doing something, I would be disgusted too. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-immigrants-rounded-up-any-reason-i-shouldnt-be-disgusted-in-my-govt/143881/15 "2002-12-19T21:58:57Z")
This is beyond stupid. It is punishing a few people for minor bureaucratic irregularities at the cost of alienating thousands in their communities in the US and giving ammunition to those outside the US who want to discredit the US. How do you think things like this play in the countries the US is seeking as allies? Punish people who show up voluntarily for not having their papers up to date and you expect people in their communities to notify the authorities when they have information of something serious being planned? I can imagine some of them would break out the champaign if they heard the INS went up in flames. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-immigrants-rounded-up-any-reason-i-shouldnt-be-disgusted-in-my-govt/143881/16 "2002-12-19T22:07:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mojo \* > \*\*Where does it say that the people rounded up were all Muslim? > > the reason why the people were detained is that **they were in violation of their visas and were here illegally.** Would you prefer the INS got warrants and broke down their doors to arrest them?\*\* Buh? THEY CAME IN VOLUNTARILY. THEY CAME IN VOLUNTARILY! Clearly, these diabolical fiends are a huge threat. Gimme a break. What I would prefer is this: Here you have someone who came in, WHEN ASKED, and may be in violation of his visa. Document the hell out of him, take his address, take photos, whatever, and then politely tell him you’ll contact him in a few days. If he’s truly in violation of his visa and needs to be deported (I’d prefer that he walk free and house and feed himself than imprison him and have us pay for it), then contact him, give him time to set his affairs in order (many of these people have families), and then make arrangements to pick him up. The fact is, these are not people that they rounded up on the street, and caught unawares. These are people who wished to follow the law as best as they could. And if they came in once, it’s likely they’ll come in again. AND, I would like someone at INS to use a friggin’ brain (they must have ONE laying around…) and realize how totally horrible this is going to look internationally–at a time when we have enough problems with world confidence. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-immigrants-rounded-up-any-reason-i-shouldnt-be-disgusted-in-my-govt/143881/17 "2002-12-19T22:15:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Saen \* > \*\*Well then, by all means, let the Illegal imigrants free. And if there is another Atta in the bunch at least we can satisfied that the INS is not arbitrary. We either want the INS to be more effecient and a tool in the war on terrorism or we don’t. The Atta example is a red herring. Or did they discover him being there illegaly and let him walk out? > > \*\* If INS wants to use its resources most productively, why can’t they round up the hundreds of thousands of people who already have outstanding deportation orders on their records? Or the ones who need to be put in deportation proceeedings because they have criminal convictions? Do they really need more work to do? Shoudl they really be concentrating their resources on people who, by definition, are trying to cooperate with authorities? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-immigrants-rounded-up-any-reason-i-shouldnt-be-disgusted-in-my-govt/143881/18 "2002-12-19T22:55:06Z")
According to the letter of the law, these detentions are justified. Expiration date \< today’s date = here illegally. In the real world, though, these is utter bullshit. Aside from the fact that many of these expirations happened because the INS doesn’t have its friggin’ act together, as discussed above, we’re shooting ourselves in the damn foot. Many if not most of these people are _happy_ to be in the United States. This should be a _resource._ “Welcome to the U.S.! We’re glad you’re here! We would like to take advantage of your presence in your community, and want to know if you hear of anything that might threaten your adopted homeland!” Instead, we’re alienating the very people who can help us the most. Friggin’ unbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![Saen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Saen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saen)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-immigrants-rounded-up-any-reason-i-shouldnt-be-disgusted-in-my-govt/143881/19 "2002-12-19T23:15:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eva Luna \* > \*\*If INS wants to use its resources most productively, why can’t they round up the hundreds of thousands of people who already have outstanding deportation orders on their records? Or the ones who need to be put in deportation proceeedings because they have criminal convictions? Do they really need more work to do? Shoudl they really be concentrating their resources on people who, by definition, are trying to cooperate with authorities? \*\* My post was in response to **Norman** , who starts off bitching about the inneptitude and inefficiency of the INS and then complains about them doing their job. I know the INS is FUBAR and deserves the biggest overhaul in the government next to the IRS. And I also said that if they where just rounding up _legal_ imigrants and detaining them on things they would not normally do, just to look like they are doing something, then I would also be disgusted. ---
**Author:** ![Nichol\_storm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Nichol\_storm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nichol_storm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-immigrants-rounded-up-any-reason-i-shouldnt-be-disgusted-in-my-govt/143881/20 "2002-12-19T23:15:57Z")
Ah hah! I’ve been pondering whether to create a thread like this. A few days back, my boyfriend (Pakistani) recieved a notice to report to the nearest INS office for finger-printing and an interview. He’s not a Muslim (he’s atheist) and certainly not a terrorist (if he hated Americans, why would he be dating me?). We did wonder why Armenia was included on the list, along with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. I couldn’t remember anything important happening in Armenia lately, at least nothing connected to terrorism. Now I see it was a mistake. .:Nichol:. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-immigrants-rounded-up-any-reason-i-shouldnt-be-disgusted-in-my-govt/143881.md?page=2)