# Muslim woman refuses to remove veil for license photo **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2003, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938 "2003-05-28T03:25:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/21 "2003-05-28T12:33:26Z")
The prior post was directed to RickJay. ---
**Author:** ![blanx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f04885/32.png) [@blanx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blanx)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/22 "2003-05-28T12:39:49Z")
Question- Will wearing the veil impair her ability to drive? (I’m thinking peripheral vision). In countries where veiled women drive, I assume they drive while veiled, right? blanx ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/23 "2003-05-28T12:48:45Z")
Just asked someone here - professor who teaches at an Emirati girls’ university. He says they drive “badly”. He said they have very limited peripheral vision, and he gives them a wide berth on the roads wherever possible. He says despite tinted windows, he’s not aware of them adjusting their veils to drive. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/24 "2003-05-28T12:55:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by In Conceivable \* > \*\*At least at recently as 10 years ago FL did offer licenses which were valid with out a signature and a photo. They could be issued to FL residents who lived in another state, like members of the military and their spouses. Does anyone know if they still do that? If they do then I really don’t see what is the problem with giving this lady a license. > > A driver’s license is simply a license to drive and it isn’t meant to be a proof positive picture idea. My husband has lost 100lbs and grown a beard since his license photo and it looks nothing like him. Does that mean the license is no longer valid and he can’t drive? Of course not. \*\* The photoless license still exists. However, with digital imaging technology in wide use for both photos and signatures, they’ll likely be a thing of the past before too long. In any case, those were never intended to be a permanent license; servicemembers and their families still had to renew/update their licenses when they returned their state of residence. Robin ---
**Author:** ![blanx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f04885/32.png) [@blanx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blanx)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/25 "2003-05-28T13:12:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > \*\*Just asked someone here - professor who teaches at an Emirati girls’ university. > > He says they drive “badly”. He said they have very limited peripheral vision, and he gives them a wide berth on the roads wherever possible. > > He says despite tinted windows, he’s not aware of them adjusting their veils to drive. \*\* See, now that’s disturbing. I’m a card carrying member of the ACLU, but I think they’ve got it wrong in this particular fight. Driving is still a privilege, and you have to submit to a few things in order to do it. I like the idea of a booth, or a curtain, so that she can get her picture taken in privacy. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/26 "2003-05-28T13:18:36Z")
Even the Taliban would have women remove the veils for photo ID’s when the picture was taken. I think I will start my own religion. Photo ID’s are not allowed to Debaserists because they steal your soul. For this reason, security cameras in public places must be disabled when we approach. Also, fingerprints are verbotten because ink is sacred to us. Any type of DNA testing on us is insufferable to my people as well for reasons I can’t get into now. My followers are not allowed to be identified by a government issued number because it is a sin under my religion to be identified by anything other than the name given by your parents. ---
**Author:** ![In\_Conceivable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4bbf92/32.png) [@In\_Conceivable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/In_Conceivable)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/27 "2003-05-28T13:23:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MsRobyn \* > \*\*The photoless license still exists. However, with digital imaging technology in wide use for both photos and signatures, they’ll likely be a thing of the past before too long. In any case, those were never intended to be a permanent license; servicemembers and their families still had to renew/update their licenses when they returned their state of residence. > > Robin \*\* The person I know renewed their photoless/signatureless driver’s license from FL by mail for 20 years. For 20 years the state didn’t even ask for an eye test. I just want people to know that exceptions to the “photo id” do exist. It isn’t like the women in the OP is asking for something that is completely unheard of in FL. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/28 "2003-05-28T13:30:08Z")
A note on “veils” and driving. First, let’s introduce two terms: Hijab: a head scarf of some kind. Niqab: the face veil. There are a bunch of ways of wearing hijabs – I’ve become quite the connoisseur – some of which would clearly inhibit peripheral vision, others (more common outside the Gulf) clealry would not. The Niqab-Hijab combo and the chador get up our dear Sultana wears there I think are probably more or less dangerous. Simple hijab, unless it’s the plastified tunnel type, nah. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/29 "2003-05-28T13:44:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > I regard this woman as a fanatical, fundamentalist convert, determined to be as difficult politically as she can be, and bringing great harm to the image of her adopted religion, as well as other muslim women. Seems like a good summary. It’s a wonder that she has not been chastised by some of her fellow muslims to stop this silly behavior, which is only bringing a maligned religion some bad press. Perhaps they have, and it’s just not reported in the news. Are we sure she is a convert? Her last name is a bit of of a giveaway, unless she is married and was brought up in an unusually strict muslim household. For those not familiar with the varioius forms of face and body coverings used in the different Islamic countries, it’s worth looking at the picture in the link provided in the OP. I guess the cops would be able to verify eye color… ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/30 "2003-05-28T14:09:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by plain\_jane \* > In fact, say she is pulled over and hands her unveiled license to the police officer. The officer then can demand she unveil herself on the spot to verify it is indeed her in the picture. You see? It’s not “just” a photograph. This will compromise her religious beliefs on more than one occasion. Tough luck. A law of general application that is enacted for a secular purpose does not suddenly become inapplicable because it may inconvenience a person of a particular religious faith. While it may or may not be reasonable to attempt enforcement in a way that accommodates the person’s faith, there is no general obligation on the part of the government to do so. The requirement of a facial photo on a driver’s license is generally applicable–it does not target whacked-out Muslim converts or any other faith–and is enacted for the secular purpose of enabling law enforcement personnel to identify drivers of motor vehicles when necessary. Her claim is as meritless as if she were claiming that it is against her religion to pay taxes. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by In Conceivable_ > A driver’s license is simply a license to drive and it isn’t meant to be a proof positive picture idea. While that may have been true in the past, it is indisputable that one of the purposes of Florida driver’s licenses _now_ is to enable law enforcement personnel to identify the driver by means of a photograph. While that identification will certainly not be perfect in every instance, it works well for the vast majority of cases. The photo requirement serves its purpose very well, and Mrs. Freeman should not be entitled to an exception that entirely frustrates that purpose. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/31 "2003-05-28T14:21:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by In Conceivable \* > \*\*The person I know renewed their photoless/signatureless driver’s license from FL by mail for 20 years. For 20 years the state didn’t even ask for an eye test. > > I just want people to know that exceptions to the “photo id” do exist. It isn’t like the women in the OP is asking for something that is completely unheard of in FL. \*\* Read the story, In:[ul]“After the [9/11] attacks, the state made photo licenses mandatory for most drivers.”[/ul] ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/32 "2003-05-28T14:26:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Seems like a good summary. It’s a wonder that she has not been chastised by some of her fellow muslims to stop this silly behavior, which is only bringing a maligned religion some bad press. Perhaps they have, and it’s just not reported in the news. I vaguely recall at least one group saying she was just being deliberately obtuse, but I can’t quite recall. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/33 "2003-05-28T14:51:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > \*\*A picture of someone wearing a veil…how does that possibly demonstrate identity? How do you verify the person presenting the ID is the same person wearing a veil as the person wearing a veil in the picture on the card? . \*\* I assume the veil the story is refering to is actually merely a headscarf, which would allow the person to be identified. By the way, there has been similar issues about muslim women and ID pictures in France (the french government recently stated people wouldn’t be allowed to wear a veil on their ID pictures) and IIRC in Germany. ---
**Author:** ![In\_Conceivable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4bbf92/32.png) [@In\_Conceivable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/In_Conceivable)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/34 "2003-05-28T15:05:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*Read the story, In:[ul]“After the [9/11] attacks, the state made photo licenses mandatory for most drivers.”[/ul] \*\* I did read the story. To me that makes it even worse. They allowed her to get a driver’s license with a veiled photo. Then her license was revoked. Not because she was a bad driver but because she wouldn’t take a new photo. They changed the laws on her after 9-11. She isn’t even asking for special treatment, just to be treated like she always was. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/35 "2003-05-28T15:23:56Z")
Goofy Devil’s Advocate point here: if she _does_ get her way, won’t she get hauled in whenever somebody puts on the same type of veil and commits a crime? “Look, there she is on the security camera! It matches her driver’s license picture!” It’d be tough to pick her out of a lineup, though. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/36 "2003-05-28T16:29:53Z")
> [@](#): > > I assume the veil the story is refering to is actually merely a headscarf, which would allow the person to be identified. Nope, it’s the full-body black covering, showing eyes only. Thus the problem. AFAIK the many Muslim women in the US who wear headscarves are allowed to wear them in ID photos. Has anyone got a substantiating link to the story I’ve been hearing this morning, that she was convicted of child endangerment after beating a foster child with a chair? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/37 "2003-05-28T16:49:14Z")
I haven’t heard that before, **genie** , but she was reportedly an evangelical preacher of some sort before marrying and converting to her husband’s particualrly nutso version of Islam. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/38 "2003-05-28T17:10:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by clairobscur \* > I assume the veil the story is refering to is actually merely a headscarf, which would allow the person to be identified. Rather than assume this, all you need to do is actually read the OP and click on the link provided. There is a clear picture showing full facial coverage (except for the eyes). ---
**Author:** ![In\_Conceivable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4bbf92/32.png) [@In\_Conceivable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/In_Conceivable)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/39 "2003-05-28T17:34:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ethilrist \* > \*\*Goofy Devil’s Advocate point here: if she _does_ get her way, won’t she get hauled in whenever somebody puts on the same type of veil and commits a crime? “Look, there she is on the security camera! It matches her driver’s license picture!” > \*\* Huh? They don’t do that anyway. Do you think everytime there is a bank robbery someone heads down to the DMV and looks through every driver’s license photo on record to try to make a match? ---
**Author:** ![MSU\_1978](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@MSU\_1978](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MSU_1978)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/40 "2003-05-28T17:45:36Z")
Assuming she can see well enough though the veil to drive, why not give her a license with her thumbprint where her photo would be? Then if she got pulled over, she could just supply a thumbprint. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938.md?page=3)