# Muslim woman refuses to remove veil for license photo **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2003, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938 "2003-05-28T03:25:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/41 "2003-05-28T18:06:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MSU 1978 \* > \*\*Assuming she can see well enough though the veil to drive, why not give her a license with her thumbprint where her photo would be? Then if she got pulled over, she could just supply a thumbprint. \*\* I think that the problem with this is that you’d have to equip every police car with a thumbprint scanner…unless we want her taken down to the station for any traffic stop? I’ll second whoever said that this was, practically speaking, the same as if she wanted to wear a mask in her photo. it’s just silly. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/42 "2003-05-28T18:07:36Z")
I think this woman was portrayed accurately as a nut. The photo needs her face, period. if she happens to get her way, I’m moving to FL, and when they ask to take my lic photo, I plan to drop trou and bend over. Then, I will proceed from the license facility and exceed the posted speed limit until I get pulled over, the officer will ask for my license…let the hilarity ensue. From a public safety standpoint, this request is one of vanity. How do you ask something so insane? You’re a convert, that’s how. As Collunsbury adeptly pointed out, converts are the worst, C-tians, Muslims whatever, they’re (mostly) so vehement about their new found righteousness that they want to impose said righteousness on everyone else, and by doing so, become wholly intolerant, in an ironic turn, of anyone else’s beliefs or the greater good. Tell this nutwhacker to drop the veil, or she doesn’t drive, end of story. -What Would Scooby Doo? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/43 "2003-05-28T18:45:10Z")
I have never, in my memory, disagreed with the ACLU on an issue, but in this case, I think they’re backing the wrong horse. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/44 "2003-05-28T18:49:07Z")
> [@](#): > > They changed the laws on her after 9-11. She isn’t even asking for special treatment, just to be treated like she always was. A person who enjoys the benefits of a previous set of laws does not automatically have the right to continue doing so when the laws change unless there is a specific “grandfather” clause. ---
**Author:** ![In\_Conceivable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4bbf92/32.png) [@In\_Conceivable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/In_Conceivable)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/45 "2003-05-28T18:55:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sqweels \* > \*\*A person who enjoys the benefits of a previous set of laws does not automatically have the right to continue doing so when the laws change unless there is a specific “grandfather” clause. \*\* I never said that it was automatic. Just that she wasn’t being unreasonable to ask to be allowed to do what they had already told her she could do. They revoked her license! They didn’t even wait until it expired and tell her she couldn’t have another one with out a photo. If a photo on a driver’s license is so necessary why wasn’t it required in FL before 9-11? Why isn’t it mandatory for all drivers rather then just “most”? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ea666f/32.png) [@Jimmy1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy1)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/46 "2003-05-28T19:06:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Tough luck. A law of general application that is enacted for a secular purpose does not suddenly become inapplicable because it may inconvenience a person of a particular religious faith. While it may or may not be reasonable to attempt enforcement in a way that accommodates the person’s faith, there is no general obligation on the part of the government to do so. **Damn it Minty Gree** that is exactly what I was going to post and you are absolutely correct. I will simply supply the most recent SCOTUS case affirming this rule and it was Employment Division v. Smith penned by Justice Scalia. This lady hardly has a First Amendment Free Exercise clause claim assuming the law is indeed neutral and of general applicability. However, she may prevail on her state law claim since the Florida Constitution requires the state show a compelling state interest and the ACLU has argued the many exceptions demonstrates the interests to be less than “compelling”. A strong argument I might add. ---
**Author:** ![lightingtool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/57b2e6/32.png) [@lightingtool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lightingtool)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/47 "2003-05-28T20:10:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by In Conceivable \* > I never said that it was automatic. Just that she wasn’t being unreasonable to ask to be allowed to do what they had already told her she could do. They revoked her license! They didn’t even wait until it expired and tell her she couldn’t have another one with out a photo. > > If a photo on a driver’s license is so necessary why wasn’t it required in FL before 9-11? Why isn’t it mandatory for all drivers rather then just “most”? Um, I used to fly with my fingernail clippers in my carry-on bag. I also used to keep a few tools with me if I was flying to work somewhere. I’ve always done it. Am I know being unreasonable when I demand that I be allowed to carry my cresent wrench on a plane? They told me I could do it before… ---
**Author:** ![yoyo3500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/5daacb/32.png) [@yoyo3500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyo3500)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/48 "2003-05-28T21:14:52Z")
I certainly applaud a woman’s desire to maintain a standard of modesty! Many of the world’sproblems would be avoided if all women were so modest! However, what’s a modest woman need a driver’s license for? Why would she be going out in public? I don’t suppose she’ll also want a veil for her car, too? ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/49 "2003-05-28T21:36:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by In Conceivable \* > \*\*I never said that it was automatic. Just that she wasn’t being unreasonable to ask to be allowed to do what they had already told her she could do. They revoked her license! They didn’t even wait until it expired and tell her she couldn’t have another one with out a photo. > > If a photo on a driver’s license is so necessary why wasn’t it required in FL before 9-11? Why isn’t it mandatory for all drivers rather then just “most”? \*\* The fact that she was able to get a driver’s license picture with her wearing a veil doesn’t necessarily mean anything except that some civil servant behind the camera made a decision to allow it. That functionary has no more ability to make binding decisions for the State of Florida than I have to make binding decisions for the company I work for. So the answer to your question is that she bent a rule before and no one cared much. Doesn’t make it legal or officially allowed. ---
**Author:** ![ataraxy22](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ataraxy22/32/307_2.png) [@ataraxy22](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ataraxy22)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/50 "2003-05-28T21:42:58Z")
why not just make a mini-veil for the picture on the license? anyways, i can’t imagine why anyone would want to argue something that will result in them spending even MORE time dealing with the DMV…that in and of itself is proof of her insanity! ---
**Author:** ![chattywine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5daacb/32.png) [@chattywine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chattywine)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/51 "2003-05-28T21:48:31Z")
Just saw the story on CNN [here](http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/05/28/license.veil.ap/index.html) and I noticed there was a handy dandy reference of DL requirements listed on the lower right — \*Driver?s identification rules in Muslim nations: Saudi Arabia:\_ Women aren’t allowed to drive Iran: Women wear a traditional Shadour, which does not cover the face. Egypt: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures United Arab Emirates: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures Oman: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures Kuwait: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures Qatar: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures Bahrain: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures Jordan: Women can drive if their faces are covered\_but do not cover their face in I.D. pictures\* SO. If _they_ can do it, why can’t she? I don’t see any civil liberties being trounced on here, it’s simply a matter of public saftey. Pre/post 9/11 I can’t comment on since I haven’t lived stateside since '97 (on second thought I can, but that’s another OP altogether) BUT regardless…that woman needs to drop the veil, for what, 15 seconds it takes the digicam to focus and shoot. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/52 "2003-05-28T21:58:33Z")
Further to **Coll’s** post, the face veils also vary. Sometimes they just have an eyeslit (looks so bizarre with glasses) and sometimes it’s this full face veil like an actual curtain, total cover. In that case the fabric appears to be slightly more sheer, presumably so the woman can see through it. Both these are different to the burqa-with-mesh-panel worn under the Taliban. I always think the full face veil looks more comfortable, because it’s thinner, it hangs less closely against the face (the eye-slit ones always look sort of pressed against the nose) and one can see through it. Very useful for keeping the sun out of your eyes, and for keeping flies off, but probably quite hot beneath still. More private - more like your own little tent. It always interests me how nasty and humid it must get, breathing through the thing, especially the thicker-fabric ones. I must ask around and find out. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/53 "2003-05-28T22:06:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by In Conceivable \* > \*\* > A driver’s license is simply a license to drive and it isn’t meant to be a proof positive picture idea. My husband has lost 100lbs and grown a beard since his license photo and it looks nothing like him. Does that mean the license is no longer valid and he can’t drive? Of course not. \*\* Not true in Ohio. It is a legal form of identification and requires a birth certificate. IMHO, an ID without a photo is worthless. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/54 "2003-05-29T05:18:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > \*\*…in that case the fabric appears to be slightly more sheer, presumably so the woman can see through it. \*\* From experience, just barely. I plan on going down to the DMV on Halloween in a ghost costume and just give 'em a line about my neo-pagan sect. ---
**Author:** ![shep\_proudfoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90db22/32.png) [@shep\_proudfoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shep_proudfoot)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/55 "2003-05-29T06:39:03Z")
My first license in Tennessee around 1983-1984 had no picture, just some personal information on me on a card. In Saudi Arabia and other Muslim places, a woman is not allowed to operate a motor vehicle. So how is this person driving one? This person needs to realize that this s America, and in America, there are rules that must be followed, which includes having a clear picture made of oneself when driving. Also, as mentioned before, if this woman goes to the bank or pays anything by check or credit card, she is going to have to show ID, but anyone with brown eyes would look about the same under that viel to verify the persons idenity. Americans are big about verification. Before you slam me about “she is in America, she needs to do it like us” remember that in Saudi, American women in the military cannot drive. Alcohol is illegal, and people are expected to dress conservatively and modestly. I have lived in several foreign countries, so I know. SP ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/56 "2003-05-29T07:02:30Z")
Some of her previous involvement with the justice system: > **[Unveiling The Florida License Litigator](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/unveiling-florida-license-litigator)** > > MAY 28--Turns out the Florida woman who is suing for the right to wear a Muslim headdress in a driver's license photograph has previously been subjected to an, um, unveiled government portrait. > Follow As suggested, she appears to be a makin’-it-up-as-she-goes-along, Hon. Elijah Muhammad-style American misfit using the religion of peace as a vehicle for venting her dissatisfaction with the system. ---
**Author:** ![Daylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/45deac/32.png) [@Daylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylon)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/57 "2003-05-29T09:28:11Z")
I think it’s rediculous… she should show her face to the DMZ. Period. Security outweighs religious rights. Now I’m sure she’s a perfectly law abiding citizen that would never to anything, but what about someone wearing a veil that commits a crime? No way in hell anyone could identify her… It’s a slippery slope argument. Make her show only DMZ the veil-less shot… it’s not like they’re going to post her on “Naughty Muslim MILFS” dot com… Daylon ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/58 "2003-05-29T10:43:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by shep proudfoot \* > > In Saudi Arabia and other Muslim places, a woman is not allowed to operate a motor vehicle. So how is this person driving one? SA is not all of Islam and I grow tired of correcting this misaprehension. Most of the Arab and Islamic world women can perfectly well obtain drivers licenses, Yemen may be the only other addition to the list, but then Yemen is a lawless hell hole. > [@](#): > > to dress conservatively and modestly. I have lived in several foreign countries, so I know. I am not sure what to make of this last fairly silly statement. I might add that face veils, the niqab, vary beyond the Gulf also. Although quite rare in North Africa, traditional style ones go under the nose only to cover the mouth (usually). ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/59 "2003-05-29T11:11:53Z")
\*\*Security outweighs religious rights. Now I’m sure she’s a perfectly law abiding citizen that would never to anything… \*\* Maybeso, but she had her photo taken without her vail after her conversion to her particular form of Islamic beliefs when she was mugged, front and profile, by the police after being arrested in a case invovling child abuse in Florida. Of course if she wins her lawsuit she might sue the cops for illegal snapshooting. And of course if she wins and is awarded punitive damages, the courts would have to give the money to the first woman who walks up wearing a vail. Sourse: Radio Talk Show host Lynn Barry 101.1 FM Radio Free Alabama. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/60 "2003-05-29T17:56:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Huerta88 \* > \*\*Some of her previous involvement with the justice system: > > [http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/sultaana1.html](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/sultaana1.html) > > As suggested, she appears to be a makin’-it-up-as-she-goes-along, Hon. Elijah Muhammad-style American misfit using the religion of peace as a vehicle for venting her dissatisfaction with the system. \*\* How precious! Maybe FL DMV should just take this mugshot and put it on her licence, and send her on her way, that should do the trick. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938.md?page=4)