# Muslim woman refuses to remove veil for license photo **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2003, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938 "2003-05-28T03:25:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/61 "2003-06-06T17:58:32Z")
> [@](#): > > ORLANDO, Fla. - A Florida judge ruled Friday that a Muslim woman cannot wear a veil in her driver’s license photo. > > Prosecutors had argued that allowing people to cover all but their eyes in their ID pictures could allow potential terrorists to hide their identities. > > After hearing three days of testimony last week, Circuit Judge Janet C. Thorpe ruled that the state has a compelling interest in protecting the public, and that having photo identification was essential to that interest. > > Thorpe also said Sultaana Freeman’s right to free exercise of religion would not be infringed by having to show her face on her license. Source: [http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=716&e=9&u=/ap/20030606/ap\_on\_re\_us/license\_veil](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=716&e=9&u=/ap/20030606/ap_on_re_us/license_veil) > [@](#): > > Judge Thorpe ruled that although Freeman held a sincere religious belief that she should wear the niqab in front of all strangers, she did not prove that “the photo requirement itself substantially burdens her right to free exercise of religion,” or that the momentarily lifting the veil in a private room for a photo taken by a female officer would be such a burden. > > On the other hand, the judge said in the ruling, the state did show that “having access to photo image identification is essential to promote” the state’s “compelling interest in protecting the public.” Source: [http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/06/florida.license.veil/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/06/florida.license.veil/index.html) > [@](#): > > DRIVER’S ID RULES IN MUSLIM NATIONS > > - Saudi Arabia: Women aren’t allowed to drive > - Iran: Women wear a traditional chador, which does not cover the face. > - Egypt: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures > - United Arab Emirates: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures > - Oman: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures > - Kuwait: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures > - Qatar: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures > - Bahrain: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures > - Jordan: Women can drive if their faces are covered but do not cover their face in I.D. pictures Source: [http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/06/florida.license.veil/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/06/florida.license.veil/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Philly\_Style](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/977dab/32.png) [@Philly\_Style](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philly_Style)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/62 "2003-06-06T23:45:32Z")
We had a somewhat similar situation in Pennsylvania a few years back. Amish hunters argued that a law that required them to wear high visibility orange violated their right to remain plain. The court rules that hunting was not a part of the Amish faith, it wasn’t required by their religion, and hunting was not an inalienable right. Final decision, you don’t have to wear orange, to avoid doing so, don’t hunt. Should you choose to hunt, wear orange or be fined? This smells the same to me. Driving isn’t a requirement of Islam. She can keep her face covered if she feels strongly about it; she just can’t drive if she does. ---
**Author:** ![Thin\_Ice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@Thin\_Ice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thin_Ice)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/63 "2003-06-07T12:50:07Z")
I heard on the news last night that the judge made the right ruling, that she must remove the veil for the picture. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/64 "2003-06-07T13:54:12Z")
My question: in Arab counties, do the women wear veils at the beach (along with thong bikinis)? ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/65 "2003-06-07T15:38:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daylon \* > \*\*I think it’s rediculous… she should show her face to the DMZ. Period. > > Security outweighs religious rights. Now I’m sure she’s a perfectly law abiding citizen that would never to anything, but what about someone wearing a veil that commits a crime? No way in hell anyone could identify her… > > It’s a slippery slope argument. Make her show only DMZ the veil-less shot… it’s not like they’re going to post her on “Naughty Muslim MILFS” dot com… > > Daylon \*\* If you don’t mind me asking, I’ve never heard the acronym DMZ for anything but Demiliarized Zone. Is the DMV that bad where you live? ---
**Author:** ![novemberromeo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee59a6/32.png) [@novemberromeo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/novemberromeo)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/66 "2003-06-07T17:14:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > \*\* > By the way, for the record, in most of the Muslim world women happily drive. \*\* Egad!! Do they drive around veiled too??? I am not going to any islamic countries!! Women drivers in cars are bad enough!! but vieled women drivers!!! :smack: (I wonder what their insurance is like :eek:) I dont care about anyones religious/spiritual beliefs… if shes to drive in 'ma town … she gotta show her mug! Alternatively she can go drive a camel or a ford fiesta around town… in those circumstances even I would wear a veil. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/67 "2003-06-07T19:07:49Z")
Whew, a lot of opinions on this. Mountain out of a molehill, IMO. 😉 Anyway, as to the security issue, are only people who have licenses security risks? I think the picture is mostly so one can buy booze. Not of much interest to a devout muslim, eh? BTW; if I meet all the legal criteria, I have a _right_ to my DL. There ya go! Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/68 "2003-06-08T06:16:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by novemberromeo \* > Egad!! Do they drive around veiled too??? Well, if you would read for comprehension through the thread I believe I address this. (a) the Hijab as simple head scarf / hair covering is the most common thing to see in terms of ‘veiling’ and is hardly something to squeel about in terms of safety. Plenty of women with the hijab drive and I fail to see a problem. (b) In terms of those who wear the niqab, I can’t ever recall seeing a woman wearing the niqab drive. > [@](#): > > I am not going to any islamic countries!! Please don’t, I hardly need more clueless tourists gawking. However, just to dispell once more the gross misconception, the face veil, the Niqab, is RARE outside of the Gulf. Hardly ever seen. > [@](#): > > \*\* Women drivers in cars are bad enough!!\*\* but vieled women drivers!!! Well is this not a fine display of Western gender sensitivity. ---
**Author:** ![Drabble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8491ac/32.png) [@Drabble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drabble)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/69 "2003-06-08T21:48:11Z")
QUOTE]Eg a “dry vagina” is considered best for sex. Ouch. Yep [/QUOTE] :dubious: Seems to me that anything that is painful for women is considered ‘best’, including female ‘circumcision’ where all here female genitalia is removed with a rusty knife and then she’s sewn shut with just a tiny hole to pee out of. Since she’ s missing all her parts the scarring causes a female to take like 15 minutes to pee, and it’s painful! That’s considered more ‘hygenic’, even though all first born children always die…to make room for the others…cause labors is usually 5 days long and the woman is missing the stretchy labia needed for stretching so the first kid can come through. Imagine the tearing when a kid finally does make it out!! This practice is popular for muslims and some other groups. Men won’t marry women unless they are ‘hygenic’, and you bet that would lead to dryness!! ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2003, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/70 "2003-06-09T07:04:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Drabble \* > Seems to me that anything that is painful for women is considered ‘best’, including female ‘circumcision’ where all here female genitalia is removed with a rusty knife and then she’s sewn shut with just a tiny hole to pee out of. Female circumcision - and here you describe the most extreme version practiced in the North East Horn of Africa, is not a **Muslim** practice at all. Of course it is notable that the cutting instrument used is invariably whatever is traditional to use for traditional surgeries, not something specifically chosen to kill and maim. Again: **Not a _Muslim_ practice at all**. It appears to have originated in North East Africa, the Horn area, where the most extreme forms are found and to have spread into parts of the Nile Valley and later perhaps into parts of the Sahel, Western Africa. It’s practiced by both Muslim and non-Muslim ethnicities, although in West Africa it is associated most strongly with Islam – wrongly and ignorantly. The practice is utterly unknown in the rest of the Muslim world, including, for example, North Africa. Amazing the amount of half-informed ignorance that flouts around about the Islamic world, bloody hell does anyone ever bother to bloody read anything of substance? ---
**Author:** ![novemberromeo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee59a6/32.png) [@novemberromeo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/novemberromeo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2003, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938/71 "2003-06-09T11:07:03Z")
From Driving license mug shots to female circumcisions… boy does the world go round! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-woman-refuses-to-remove-veil-for-license-photo/177938.md?page=3)