# Muslim womans veil snatched **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 7, 2006, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-womans-veil-snatched/375596 "2006-10-07T08:57:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2006, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-womans-veil-snatched/375596/1 "2006-10-07T08:57:42Z")
Not certain if this is the correct forum but no doubt the mods will decide. It has been reported that a 49 year old Muslim woman had her veil snatched from her face by a white man in his 60s after he had subjected her to racial abuse. The incident occured whilst she was at a bus stop in Liverpool, England. Obviously this is a great insult both to her and the Muslim community and I just dread the outcome ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2006, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-womans-veil-snatched/375596/2 "2006-10-07T09:07:19Z")
Though this may be a coincidence, it’s cleary received prominence in the news, or has been prompted by, cabinet minister Jack Straw’s [opinions on the veil](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5413470.stm). [Mixed views](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/5413352.stm) in this vox pop of Muslim British Citizens. On consideration, I think Mr Straw, one of the most intelligent people in the cabinet (IMO) knew exactly what he was doing when he provoked this debate. Personally, I agree with every word Mr Straw said. He was careful to say it was just his opinion, and that he didn’t presribe anything at all. Of course, his words have been twisted by both extremes, as he must have known they would. I hope that, as with freedom of speech, people will retain the the right to wear it, but the arguments against it will win out. I also hope the woman in question wasn’t too traumatised by the assault, if it actually happened (since no cite visible). ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2006, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-womans-veil-snatched/375596/3 "2006-10-07T09:11:20Z")
Sorry **jjimm** no cite available, I read it on Ceefax today ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2006, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-womans-veil-snatched/375596/4 "2006-10-07T09:20:01Z")
[Here you go](http://www.ceefax.tv/cgi-bin/gfx.cgi?page=119_0&font=big&channel=bbc1&ma01=0104041&ma02=1805041&ma03=1511041): Ceefax online. > [@](#): > > The 49-year-old, from Toxteth, was at the junction of Kensington and Hold Road when her veil was snatched by a tall white man in his 60s. > > Insp Saied Mostaghel, of Merseyside Police, said: “This was a despicable attack, which has left the victim feeling extremely shocked and upset.” ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2006, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-womans-veil-snatched/375596/5 "2006-10-07T10:40:59Z")
What really puzzles me is why the women wear these veils. I mean they cannot all be so stunningly beautiful that men would swoon at the sight of them…can they? Also It seems that there is nothing in the koran (or whatever) that says that women should cover up their fizzers ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2006, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-womans-veil-snatched/375596/6 "2006-10-07T12:20:41Z")
I can’t be the only one who read the title and thought “_Of course_ they keep their snatches veiled”, can I? Oh, yes - ethnic hatred is a very bad thing. We shouldn’t make light of it. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2006, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-womans-veil-snatched/375596/7 "2006-10-07T12:25:03Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] What really puzzles me is why the women wear these veils. I mean they cannot all be so stunningly beautiful that men would swoon at the sight of them…can they? [/QUOTE] Rather transparently the opposite, I’d say. ---
**Author:** ![Jakonovski](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e47c2d/32.png) [@Jakonovski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jakonovski)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2006, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-womans-veil-snatched/375596/8 "2006-10-07T13:05:46Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] What really puzzles me is why the women wear these veils. I mean they cannot all be so stunningly beautiful that men would swoon at the sight of them…can they? Also It seems that there is nothing in the koran (or whatever) that says that women should cover up their fizzers [/QUOTE] I dunno, why do western women cover their breasts? I mean, why not let 'em hang out if it’s comfortable? Crazy westerners. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2006, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-womans-veil-snatched/375596/9 "2006-10-07T13:07:26Z")
They wear them because it’s part of their culture and they consider that the proper way to dress modestly. Regardless of why she wears the veil, it’s offensive for someone to walk up to her and take the veil from her. It seems that the man fixated on the veil as part of her “ethnic behavior” and lashed out at that. Simple ethnic hatred. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2006, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-womans-veil-snatched/375596/10 "2006-10-07T13:30:38Z")
[QUOTE=Jakonovski] I dunno, why do western women cover their breasts? I mean, why not let 'em hang out if it’s comfortable? Crazy westerners. [/QUOTE] I give up - you tell me. (Other than the chafing thing.) ---
**Author:** ![Jakonovski](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e47c2d/32.png) [@Jakonovski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jakonovski)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2006, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-womans-veil-snatched/375596/11 "2006-10-07T13:42:33Z")
[QUOTE=Ludovic] I give up - you tell me. (Other than the chafing thing.) [/QUOTE] One of us is whooshed, but I’m not sure who. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2006, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-womans-veil-snatched/375596/12 "2006-10-07T14:02:13Z")
I’m not sure either: I just want to make sure you are not implying that Western morals are monolithic to the point that _everyone_ wants to illegalize bare-breastedness. I for one don’t see the need for such a custom or law. (Unless it’s a shirt with _only_ the breast portion cut out – those can be illegal 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2006, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-womans-veil-snatched/375596/13 "2006-10-07T14:03:26Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] Rather transparently the opposite, I’d say. [/QUOTE] :dubious: You know nothing. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2006, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-womans-veil-snatched/375596/14 "2006-10-07T14:04:02Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] What really puzzles me is why the women wear these veils. [/QUOTE] Serious answer? This comes from an autobiographical book written by an Islamic Iranian woman that I’m reading right now, [Reading Lolita in Tehran: A Memoir in Books](http://www.amazon.com/Reading-Lolita-Tehran-Memoir-Books/dp/081297106X/sr=8-1/qid=1160229658/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-3726372-0803316?ie=UTF8&s=books). This scene is somewhere around 1980: > [@](#): > > When then radical students canceled classes, [Mr. Bahri] was among the few who showed up, with evident disapproval. During these canceled classes, we usually talked about the various events unfolding at the university or the political issues of the day. He cautiously tried to make me understand what political Islam meant, and I rebuffed him, because it was exactly Islam as a political entity that I rejected. I told him about my grandmother, who was the most devout Muslin I had ever known, even more than you, Mr. Bahri, and still she shunned politics. She resented the fact that her veil, which to her was a symbol of her sacred relationship to God, had now become an instrument of power, turning the women who wore them into political signs and symbols. Where do your loyalties lie, Mr. Bahri, with Islam or the state? As the author makes clear, there are two meanings for the veil - a religious meaning and a political one. While I can support the religious one, and women’s choice to wear a veil for God, I can never, IMNSHO, support it for political reasons against women’s wills. ---
**Author:** ![Jakonovski](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e47c2d/32.png) [@Jakonovski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jakonovski)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2006, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-womans-veil-snatched/375596/15 "2006-10-07T14:09:40Z")
[QUOTE=Ludovic] I’m not sure either: I just want to make sure you are not implying that Western morals are monolithic to the point that _everyone_ wants to illegalize bare-breastedness. I for one don’t see the need for such a custom or law. (Unless it’s a shirt with _only_ the breast portion cut out – those can be illegal 🙂 ) [/QUOTE] I’m merely pointing out that covering one’s breasts/head are both the same kind of clothing convention, and shouldn’t really puzzle anyone. After all, there’s no pragmatic need for either in many situations. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2006, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-womans-veil-snatched/375596/16 "2006-10-07T14:21:32Z")
Would the man taken off an Orthodox Jewish woman’s head covering as well? ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2006, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-womans-veil-snatched/375596/17 "2006-10-07T14:25:49Z")
[QUOTE=Jakonovski] I dunno, why do western women cover their breasts? I mean, why not let 'em hang out if it’s comfortable? Crazy westerners. [/QUOTE] Come to that why don’t men stroll around with their todgers dangling out and women with their vadges flapping in the breeze…if it’s comfortable y’unnerstand ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2006, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-womans-veil-snatched/375596/18 "2006-10-07T14:27:06Z")
[QUOTE=Zabali\_Clawbane] Would the man taken off an Orthodox Jewish woman’s head covering as well? [/QUOTE] Only if he was wearing one 😛 and didn’t want the neighbours to start talking ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2006, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-womans-veil-snatched/375596/19 "2006-10-07T14:38:25Z")
[QUOTE=Jakonovski] I’m merely pointing out that covering one’s breasts/head are both the same kind of clothing convention, and shouldn’t really puzzle anyone. After all, there’s no pragmatic need for either in many situations. [/QUOTE] No, I don’t think this is true. While covering your breasts may have been a relgious rule once, I don’t think it is anymore. We expect and insist that athiest women, Christian women, Jewish women, and even African women who might have gone topless at home all cover themselves here. While we might privately think it’s stupid, I don’t for a second believe that a single one of us would be witness to a topless women walking down the street in front of our house and NOT be shocked or run to MPSIMS to tell the tale. The social censure is high, even among people without the religious dogma to uphold the taboo. The veil is a woman’s sign of her special relationship and covenant with God, in its best use. It’s very much like a nun’s habit or a Hassidic Jew’s hair covering or yamulke or the prayer shawl - a sign that this woman takes her relationship with God more seriously than her relationship with any human man, and that she does so on a constant basis, not a once-a-week-while-in-church thing. Again, I recognize that the veil has another meaning now - that of political and religious oppression, and I despise that fact. But I can’t know which expression this particular woman had in mind. And, historically, there was a much more practical reason for veiling - it kept you from getting both wrinkles and skin cancer in the desert sun. Not such a worry nowadays with sunscreen and not letting women out of the house, but old habits die hard. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2006, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-womans-veil-snatched/375596/20 "2006-10-07T14:45:24Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] No, I don’t think this is true. While covering your breasts may have been a relgious rule once, I don’t think it is anymore. We expect and insist that athiest women, Christian women, Jewish women, and even African women who might have gone topless at home all cover themselves here. While we might privately think it’s stupid, I don’t for a second believe that a single one of us would be witness to a topless women walking down the street in front of our house and NOT be shocked or run to MPSIMS to tell the tale. The social censure is high, even among people without the religious dogma to uphold the taboo. [/QUOTE] And yet in the South Pacific and parts of Africa (and possibly South America, though not sure), societies where bare breasts were the norm were made to cover up by Christian missionaries, for religious moral reasons. Just sayin’. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-womans-veil-snatched/375596.md?page=2)