# Muslim women, makeup and veils **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 7, 2003, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261 "2003-06-07T06:19:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/21 "2003-06-10T02:58:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Drabble \* > It was a muslim woman on a show that I saw cutting a muslim girl, before I ever hears of it done in Africa. Sure there are various extremes, but all in all it is done. **Collounsbury’s** point is that this is not a normative universal feature of Islam, but rather a regional cultural practice that has taken on a religious veneer in many areas where it is practiced. In areas where it is practiced it actually tends **not** to be perculiar to a particular religion - Egyptian Coptic Christians practice both male and female circumcision, same as their Muslim neighbors. So do Christian Ethiopians. Similarly in Nigeria: \*Clitoridectomy and excision are most widely practised in southwest Nigeria, where the majority population is Christian, and infibulation in the northwest, where the majority population is Muslim, they said. [/quote] From here: [http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/West\_Africa/0,6119,2-11-998\_1164594,00.html](http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/West_Africa/0,6119,2-11-998_1164594,00.html) > [@](#): > > Yes, some muslim communities in Africa and middle east. > you gotta tell the people on that site they are wrong too then. > > [http://whatsthisthen.netfirms.com/femcircsingapore.html](http://whatsthisthen.netfirms.com/femcircsingapore.html) While **Collounsbury** did neglect to mention Malaysia and Singapore ( which, however, as noted in the above article practice a far less invasive version than that found in Africa ), your own cite notes that it is not religious in origin, but cultural. Per your own cite: \*But the custom has no religious basis and there are no guidelines - except that it should not bring harm to believers, said Zhulkeflee Haji Ismail, manager of Singapore’s Islamic Scholars and Religious Teachers Association. \* Also, Egypt excluded, you generally _don’t_ find the widespread practice female circumcision in the Middle East. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satisfying_Andy_Licious)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/22 "2003-06-10T03:13:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ethilrist \* > \*\*Why can’t some Christians tell all those cranky Irish people to stop with the terrorism and bombs and stuff? > \*\* I know you’re only trying to make an ironic point, but that fosters the myth that _only_ the Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland commit violence. ---
**Author:** ![Drabble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8491ac/32.png) [@Drabble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drabble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/23 "2003-06-10T03:18:07Z")
I did say ‘popular’, so you’re saying it happens, but it isn’t ‘popular’. The less extremes ones are actually more popular. People even still perform circumsicions culturally in America on boys and girls…of course more commonly boys in all religions that it is common in, and on girls on the cultural level where it is still believed girls are more marriageable if they have some form of circumcision. I also was talking more along the cultural lines since the post I was referring to was about ‘dryness’, I’m sure that’s cultural and not religious as well. My main point was that it seems in many cultures that anything to do with pain for woman seems preferable to the men including the dryness example, and my more extreme example. They are also not just preferable, but are also labelled ‘hygenic’. I do generalize a lot, so I expect replies, but it’s generalizing, not ignorance. I will try to be more ‘precise’ 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/24 "2003-06-10T03:31:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tamerlane \* > > While **Collounsbury** did neglect to mention Malaysia and Singapore ( which, however, as noted in the above article practice a far less invasive version than that found in Africa ) …And I neglected to mention Indonesia or at least parts of it. > [@](#): > > Also, Egypt excluded, you generally _don’t_ find the widespread practice of female circumcision in the Middle East. Also, Yemen, where it is a minority practice ( maybe 1/4 of the populace ) but more widespread in coastal districts ( the farther inland, the more rare it gets ), , probably reflecting the at times extensive cultural exchange between Yemen and the Horn. **Drabble** : Ah, ‘popular’. Well insomuch as it is practiced in a few of the more densely populated Muslim countries, I suppose one could argue that technically that is correct. Maybe. But it _is_ rather imprecise ( and, I’d argue, misleading ) to say “it is popular with Muslims” when it is not really a feature of the religion, except locally and via cultural accretion. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/25 "2003-06-10T04:06:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satisfying Andy Licious \* > \*\*I know you’re only trying to make an ironic point, but that fosters the myth that _only_ the Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland commit violence. \*\* I dunno…the Unionists tend to be cranky Irish people too. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/26 "2003-06-10T07:26:53Z")
Wonderful, another member of the illogical response club. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Drabble \* > It was a muslim woman on a show that I saw cutting a muslim girl, before I ever hears of it done in Africa. Sure there are various extremes, but all in all it is done. Muslim is not a term opposite of Africa. Your response, besides being grammatically defective is illogical. Illogical on two points (a) I did not indicate the practice is not performed, what I indicated was it is not a Muslim practice per se, but something derived from North East Africa by all accounts. (b) the opposition btw Africa and Muslim is just plain nonesensical. > [@](#): > > Yes, some muslim communities in Africa and middle east. Some. Egypt, often included in North Africa, and as Tamerlane noted, some in Yemen, likely Horn of Africa derived populations/cultural influence. For the vast bulk of the Arab Muslim world it is entirely unknown, where it is practiced, the practice is both Xian and Muslim. To indicate the practice is popular with Muslims when in fact the majority of the Muslim world does not practice this is **gross and ignorant distortion**. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/27 "2003-06-10T07:31:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sqweels \* > \*\*If Islamic culture is not so bad as everybody seems to think, why can’t some muslims tell Ms. Freeman she can bloody well take off her veil for her driver’s license photo? \*\* Well some did, so what’s your bloody point other than you’re intevening in ignorance? (e.g. the Islamic law expert who testified against her.) ---
**Author:** ![elfje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@elfje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfje)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/28 "2003-06-10T12:49:28Z")
A lot of followers of the two _other_ monotheist religions seem not to know that the Qu’ran (spelling?) advocates that a woman’s worth is as much as a man’s. Unlike the Old and/or New testament. Yes, there are two versions of the story of Creation, the first states that man and woman are equal, the second that the woman is subordinate to man. the latter had/has been widely accepted as the one to implement. In Islam culture, women are heavily protected, as the family honour depends on their chastity. The idea itself is not a strange one, in Athens, during the Roman Empire, women did not walk the streets unaccompanied. If they did, then that meant that they were “working women”. It is a theme that keeps on occuring in religion, though, and it’s one that makes me sad: Women are either depicted as saints, or near saints, or as whores. There does not seem to be a middle ground. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/29 "2003-06-10T13:19:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elfje \* > A lot of followers of the two _other_ monotheist religions seem not to know that the Qu’ran (spelling?) advocates that a woman’s worth is as much as a man’s. Unlike the Old and/or New testament. Well, that is not quite true. On a number of points Quranic injunctions would have women’s views and worth as somewhat less than a man’s. Benchmarked against then extent and dominent Abrahamic and regional views on the worth of women, ability to own property and the like, the Quranic is a damn sight better, but doesn’t really reach equal worth. Of course the added problem is that what the Quran granted, somehow traditions tended to chip away at. I might add from a purely logical view, in tribal contexts, given issues of resource distribution, deep concern with making sure baby X really is the child of X1 and Y1 of the tribe makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/30 "2003-06-10T14:32:32Z")
To widen this discussion, there is considerable variation in how people choose to carry out the veiling and other practices of modesty. Walking down the street here, you’ll see that some women wear the hijab only, and you see them wearing it with jeans and long-sleeve shirts. Some wear a coat over their regular clothes (it’s not called a coat; the name escapes me; it looks like a well-tailored choir robe). Some women only wear hijab which are plain (black, navy, or grey); others wear hijab with prints and patterns. There is obviously variation in how this is to be done; it’s foolhardy to lump all muslim women together. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/31 "2003-06-10T14:43:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CrankyAsAnOldMan \* > Some wear a coat over their regular clothes (it’s not called a coat; the name escapes me; it looks like a well-tailored choir robe). Probably refering to some form of ‘abaya’ although it goes under different names in different areas. ---
**Author:** ![elfje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@elfje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfje)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/32 "2003-06-10T14:57:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > **Well, that is not quite true. On a number of points Quranic injunctions would have women’s views and worth as somewhat less than a man’s. Benchmarked against then extent and dominent Abrahamic and regional views on the worth of women, ability to own property and the like, the Quranic is a damn sight better, but doesn’t really reach equal worth. > \*\* and would those injunctions be the words of Allah himself, or Mohammed’s interpretations (I belive they are called something else, the name escapes me)? genuine question, as I don’t know.** > > Of course the added problem is that what the Quran granted, somehow traditions tended to chip away at. > \*\*yeah, same thing happened with Christian teachings. I think Abraham’s god was the only one of the current 3 monotheist religions that made no qualms about being, err, stormy, for want of a better word. You had to be God fearing, not God loving. Christ changed that, i think, and Mohammed’s wife (Fatima?) was nearly as respected as he was (please correct me if I’m wrong, the one and only year I studied Islam is now 10 years ago). > \*\* > > I might add from a purely logical view, in tribal contexts, given issues of resource distribution, deep concern with making sure baby X really is the child of X1 and Y1 of the tribe makes sense. > **same reason why in China the only man to come in contact with the Emperors wifes and concubines, was the emperor himself. All others (in the palace) were eunuchs. A man needs to know they’re his genes, not somebody elses. > I sometimes wonder how men behaved before they knew they had something to do with procreation** ---
**Author:** ![Drabble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8491ac/32.png) [@Drabble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drabble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/33 "2003-06-10T15:29:30Z")
> [@](#): > > To indicate the practice is popular with Muslims when in fact the majority of the Muslim world does not practice this is gross and ignorant distortion. NIce, A. I already went over that and changed my wording B. That was not my main point. Get over it ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/34 "2003-06-10T15:35:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Drabble \* > A. I already went over that and changed my wording Insufficiently, although you did make a somewhat pitiable attempt at back tracking. [quote] B. That was not my main point. [quote] It rather escapes one what the hell your point would have been given the context of the thread. In other words, your backpeddling is unconvincing. > [@](#): > > Get over it I’m well “over it” – next time get your bloody facts right before intervening in a discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Drabble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8491ac/32.png) [@Drabble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drabble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/35 "2003-06-10T15:53:13Z")
Nice, intervening, I guess newbies are going to assualted on everything they say, their main points ignored, and aren’t welcome. Thanks. The practice of female circumcision is POPULAR, maybe not the extreme one I posted…but female circumcision is POPULAR and common and done to almost every muslim/islamic female. I never said it was a religious thing, I was referring to the ‘dryness’ which also isn’t a religious thing. Before jumping down someone’s throat and going on and on and on, why don’t you see the difference between calling something religious (which I didn’t) and see that I was referring to the dryness. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/36 "2003-06-10T16:15:02Z")
> [@](#): > > The practice of female circumcision is POPULAR, maybe not the extreme one I posted…but female circumcision is POPULAR and common and done to almost every muslim/islamic female. No, it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/37 "2003-06-10T16:18:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Drabble \* > \*\* > The practice of female circumcision is POPULAR, maybe not the extreme one I posted…but female circumcision is POPULAR and common and done to almost every muslim/islamic female. \*\* But that’s the thing…it’s not common, and not done to almost every Muslim woman, and this is what Tamerlane and Collunsbury have been trying to tell you. Please don’t think that people are being overly harsh on you because you’re new. It’s not like that at all. You just made a statement that isn’t supported by the facts. There’s nothing wrong with that, particularly…you were just incorrect. It happens to everybody. ---
**Author:** ![Drabble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8491ac/32.png) [@Drabble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drabble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/38 "2003-06-10T16:33:26Z")
That’s the problem, it is common/widespread and popular, that’s not wrong, and it’s not misinformation. > [@](#): > > Clitordectomy is the circumcision of the clitoris to deny pleasure to a female during sexual intercourse. > > This procedure was very common in the past throughout the world, however today many of these places have forbidden this. > > The only regions left include the Middle East. > > The moderate Muslim’s view, including mine, sees this as evil. This is God, as a means of pleasure, gives the clitoris to us, and removing would be an act against the will God. Extremist on the other hand explain that keeping the Clitoris will lead women to conduct sinful acts against the teachings of Islam. > > For example, a woman wouldn’t engage in any sexual interaction if she it wouldn’t cause her any pleasure. Furthermore, she is not likely to cheat on her husband without her Clitoris. Some ignorant propositions of this procedure, in order to lure the female or family’s to go through with this, include “ The milk of the mother will be poisonous if the Clitoris touches the baby during childbirth” or “Clitoredectomy makes a woman more beautiful, and will prevent her face from turning yellow”5. This goes against the teachings of the he Qur’an, which again is very ironic because it is the most religious people who conduct this. The Qur’an states that “It is lawful for you to go unto your wives during the night preceding (day’s) fast: they are as a garment for you and you are a garment as for them.”6. Further more clitoredectomy does more harm than good. Firstly it has been scientifically proven that this procedure leads to depression. Secondly going through the menstrual cycle, and having intercourse is tremendously painful. > > One of the women, who were exposed to Clitoredectomy, was the Egyptian writer Nawal El-Saadawi. She says > “The importance given to virginity and an intact hymen in these societies is the reason why female circumcision still remains a very widespread practice > > WIDESPREAD > > …This permits a female who has reached the dangerous age of puberty and adolescence to protect her virginity, and therefore her honor, with greater ease.”7. In the perception of a Muslim fundamentalist, Mohammed Sayyed Tantawi, explains that “Female circumcision is Islamic” and anyone who goes against this is going against Islam.8 The truth is, many people like Tantawi attempt to make them self believe that it is Islamic. This is so that it provides a gateway to allow their unlawful behavior. The real reason behind this is their desire to conserve what is most important to them, honor. > > . ---
**Author:** ![Drabble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8491ac/32.png) [@Drabble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drabble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/39 "2003-06-10T16:39:43Z")
[http://www.google.ca/custom?q=cache:5edPBD3s5ywJ:www.nmhschool.org/tthornton/acsnmhpapers/ynsouli.doc+statistics+on+female+circumcision,+muslim,+Islam,+middle+east&hl=en&start=5&ie=UTF-8](http://www.google.ca/custom?q=cache:5edPBD3s5ywJ:www.nmhschool.org/tthornton/acsnmhpapers/ynsouli.doc+statistics+on+female+circumcision,+muslim,+Islam,+middle+east&hl=en&start=5&ie=UTF-8) > [@](#): > > The practice is common in 28 African countries, where an estimated 100 million women are circumcised. The origins of the tradition are murky; some imbue the ritual with Muslim religious significance, but Muslim scholars say there is no religious basis for it. The type of mutilation practiced in Africa has three levels of severity. The first level involves removing part of the clitoris. The next level, excision, involves removal of part or all of the labia minora. The most severe form, called infibulation, is the removal of the clitoris, labia minora and part of the labia majora, which are then sewn shut. Because medical personnel often refuse to perform the operation, says Amina Kamil Jibrel, a Somali woman who offers counseling to other Somalis at a municipal office in Copenhagen, it is usually carried out by a woman lacking medical training and knowledge of infection. When she was circumcised at 6, Jibrel says she couldn’t move for a week: “You sit on the floor for seven days and your legs are tied together with a piece of cloth so you can’t move and the wound will heal.” [http://www.time.com/time/europe/html/030505/circumcision.html](http://www.time.com/time/europe/html/030505/circumcision.html) [http://www.hollyfeld.org/ftp/archives/fgm-l/9601/msg00028.phtml](http://www.hollyfeld.org/ftp/archives/fgm-l/9601/msg00028.phtml) And it happens in the states/canada, britain, etc to muslim women. They will even take the girls back to ‘the old country’ where they’re from and get it done. > [@](#): > > Since your audience is mainly American it may strengthen your article > if you get statistics from emergency rooms. this will also have a great > effect on those who practice it in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Drabble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8491ac/32.png) [@Drabble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drabble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/40 "2003-06-10T16:45:06Z")
You can see here they abandoned the campaign against the practice because it is so popular > [@](#): > > One could argue that, in crushing the Islamists, Mubarak has saved the country from a reactionary movement which would have trampled upon the rights of women, Christians, and free-thinkers. Has he? The government claims that it is as conservative as anyone, and does little to rein in cultural or social reactionaries. > Friday preachers may launch fiery attacks on feminists and secularists - as long as they don’t talk politics. > Jihan’s Law - probably the single most important piece of legislation for women, which extended their property rights during divorce > > - was repealed. Running up against strong resistance from traditionalists, the government has for all purposes abandoned its campaign against female circumcision. [http://www.dfn.org/voices/egypt/metimes/mubarak.htm](http://www.dfn.org/voices/egypt/metimes/mubarak.htm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261.md?page=3)