# Muslim women, makeup and veils **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 7, 2003, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261 "2003-06-07T06:19:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Drabble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8491ac/32.png) [@Drabble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drabble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/41 "2003-06-10T16:52:30Z")
In the US the doctors did a study > [@](#): > > The religion mentioned most often was Islam, > [@](#): > > To date, FGOs are estimated as affecting more than 130 million females throughout the world > [@](#): > > The US Department of Health and Human Services estimates that in 1990 approximately 168,000 females in the United States had undergone or were at risk for FGOs (2). [http://www.texmed.org/ata/nrm/tme/texmeddec00feat.asp](http://www.texmed.org/ata/nrm/tme/texmeddec00feat.asp) 168, 000 in the USA!!! Never mind muslim countries where it more like 100% of females get some form of circumcision. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/42 "2003-06-10T16:55:23Z")
Right…it’s popular in Egypt/the horn of Africa, and it’s popular in West Africa, as Tamerlane has said, and as your cites show, but that’s different than saying it’s popular among Muslims, because most Muslims don’t live in West Africa or Egypt/the Horn of Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Drabble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8491ac/32.png) [@Drabble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drabble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/43 "2003-06-10T16:56:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Were there any examples of positive or adverse social reactions to the laws? a correspondent asked. Dr. Toubia says that the cumulative positive effect is difficult to measure and would need time to be assessed. On the individual level, she is aware of two cases. There was a case of a well-educated, affluent immigrant family in the United States in which the mother did not want to circumcise the daughter. The father, however, was under great pressure by his business associates to circumcise his daughter. If he did not conform to the pressures of his business associates, his livelihood would have been threatened. The mother contacted a counseling service. When the father learned of the legal ramifications of female genital mutilation for his family and his community, the law gave him the power to resist the demands of his associates. This shows the pressure a family undergoes even the the USA!! [http://www.afrol.com/Categories/Women/index\_fgm.htm](http://www.afrol.com/Categories/Women/index_fgm.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/44 "2003-06-10T16:57:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Drabble \* > \*\*Never mind muslim countries where it more like 100% of females get some form of circumcision. \*\* See, specifically, this is the factual statement you haven’t supported yet. You haven’t shown that almost 100% of women living in Muslim countries get some form of circumcision. ---
**Author:** ![Drabble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8491ac/32.png) [@Drabble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drabble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/45 "2003-06-10T16:58:34Z")
> [@](#): > > AFROL Background - Fighting Female Genital Mutilation in Africa > … Based on statistics from Amnesty International and US … consider female circumcision obligatory. … is higher in predominatly Muslim countries (see … > [www.afrol.com/Categories/Women/backgr\_fighting\_fgm.htm](http://www.afrol.com/Categories/Women/backgr_fighting_fgm.htm) ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/46 "2003-06-10T16:58:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Drabble \* > \*\*The practice of female circumcision is POPULAR, maybe not the extreme one I posted…but female circumcision is POPULAR and common and done to almost every muslim/islamic female. \*\* Why are you saying this, when better informed people have told you that you are wrong? FGM is predominantly an AFRICAN practice, not an Islamic one. Try this BBC link: [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2977426.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2977426.stm) - “Genital mutilation still common.” In the right hand column there are links to archive stories. Note the countries involved: Sudan, Kenya, Cameroon, Ethiopia. ---
**Author:** ![Drabble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8491ac/32.png) [@Drabble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drabble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/47 "2003-06-10T17:03:13Z")
Okay, the good news!! > [@](#): > > In Egypt > > The practice of female circumcision is widespread in Egypt. According to the Egyptian Demographic and Health Survey (EDHS) done in 1995, 97% of the ever-married females questioned had been circumcised. The prevalence was only 90%, however, with those with secondary or higher education as well as in the frontier provinces. According to other studies, two thirds of circumcised females showed a partial or total excision of the clitoris and labia minora, while partial or total excision of the clitoris was less common and of the labia minora only was least common. Labia majora excision occurred in one in eleven cases only. > > In the Middle East: > > Female circumcision is not practiced in the Middle East, or in the countries of the Arab Peninsula, with the exception of Yemen, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain and Oman. > > In Bahrain, genital operations are rapidly decreasing, and consist of a cut made over the clitoris. > > It is not practiced in the cradle and of Islam, namely Saudi Arabia. Neither is it practiced in Algeria, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia. In some places 97% is very close to 100% Some places it is not done in the middle east…but some places it is done in the middle east… AND the prevalence is going down in Egypt!! Yay!! Also, a less severe form is being chosen more often in Bahrain. However it is still popular and widespread and common. ---
**Author:** ![Drabble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8491ac/32.png) [@Drabble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drabble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/48 "2003-06-10T17:07:42Z")
NOw, as I said, it was popular, and I never mentioned any countries at all, and I never said it was a religious practice. if 6,000 girls getting circumcised every day is not ‘popular’, then of course I don’t what is. Again, I never mentioned countries originally, and I never said it was a religious practice, and my main point had to do with the ‘dryness’ comment someone else made. Why don’t you make that person prove that dryness is popular??? ---
**Author:** ![Drabble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8491ac/32.png) [@Drabble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drabble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/49 "2003-06-10T17:12:22Z")
> [@](#): > > FGM is predominantly an AFRICAN practice, not an Islamic one. It is populare among Islams in Africa. 97% of Islam women were circed in Egypt…now it is less, but still popular. It is done in the middle east too, Yemen, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain and Oman. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/50 "2003-06-10T17:20:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Drabble \* > \*\*Why don’t you make that person prove that dryness is popular??? \*\* I don’t know that it is popular. The reference to “dryness” is from a historical sex manual. It seems very odd that “dryness” would ever have been popular in any society, given the discomfort it can cause both men and women. ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/51 "2003-06-10T17:52:18Z")
Friction, Love…friction. 😃 Of course, i’ve been trying to get my wife to stop smoking… ---
**Author:** ![Drabble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8491ac/32.png) [@Drabble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drabble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/52 "2003-06-10T18:32:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > \*\*I don’t know that it is popular. > > The reference to “dryness” is from a historical sex manual. > > It seems very odd that “dryness” would ever have been popular in any society, given the discomfort it can cause both men and women. \*\* Yeah, it was a manual…and I’m extrapolating there, figuring if it’s in a manual and called ‘preferable’ that it is a popular view, and of course I don’t know that!:smack: I’m sure it would be uncomfortable for men too! I wonder if anyone did follow that manual? Yuck! It just ticked me off to hear that…dryness being good…and circumcision being hygenic. Both false. Dryness is not preferable, and the extreme form of circumcision in women causes a multitude of health problems (thier menstraul blood is trapped-as i read) Yuck! You can see I’m touchy on woman subjects where I read that something uncomfortable or harmful is preferable for dumb reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/53 "2003-06-10T19:01:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Drabble \* > \*\*Yeah, it was a manual…and I’m extrapolating there, figuring if it’s in a manual and called ‘preferable’ that it is a popular view, and of course I don’t know that!:smack: > \*\* It also has a section that says that if you mix leeches with other materials then grind it all up and smear the paste on your penis, it’ll make your penis gets better. The section on making your penis bigger even includes the note “I tried all of these things and they REALLY work”. My guess? The manual’s the medieval Muslim version of e-mail spam… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Nephelium](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@Nephelium](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nephelium)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/54 "2003-06-10T19:01:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Drabble \* > \*\*It is populare among Islams in Africa. 97% of Islam women were circed in Egypt…now it is less, but still popular. > > It is done in the middle east too, Yemen, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain and Oman. \*\* I live in the middle east and I have friends from all the countries you are quoting… Have you ever been to the Middle East? Or Bahrain for that matter…lol… You know, there’s a saying…“Do not believe everything that you read.” Try thinking abt that one before you pass hasty generalizations. FGM is not “popular” in any of those countries… And FYI, Egypt is quite forward thinking…there are women there who are not veiled. I don’t understand why you haven’t taken the time to read the posts, ppl have told you that it is commonly practiced in African countries…and some of those countries which are quoted follow CHRISTIANITY. FGM is cultural and not religious… ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/55 "2003-06-10T20:32:50Z")
**Neph** - WELCOME!!! Am so glad to see you here! ---
**Author:** ![Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satisfying_Andy_Licious)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/56 "2003-06-10T21:41:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elfje \* > **A lot of followers of the two _other_ monotheist religions seem not to know that the Qu’ran (spelling?) advocates that a woman’s worth is as much as a man’s. Unlike the Old and/or New testament.** All right then, cite an actual passage that says a woman’s worth is less. ---
**Author:** ![Nephelium](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@Nephelium](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nephelium)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/57 "2003-06-10T22:03:55Z")
Ahem… I can’t think of any faith that doesn’t discriminate against women. Ever since man found out that he was also “partly” responsible for procreation…women have been subjugated. What happened to the days when women were revered? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/58 "2003-06-11T06:25:30Z")
So, we have a new poster with the logical and argumentive capacities of our illustrious december. So our Drabble, with liberal use of exclamation points, goes shrieking on about how “widespread” and “popular” the practice is, in the Middle East and among Muslims. It should be fairly clear from Drabble’s own citations that this is far from the case and indeed a gross and inaccurate exaggeration. As his or her own quoted citation (although the sourcing is obscure) indicates, the practice is not known in North Africa at all, except Egypt, nor the Sham or and is largely unknown in the Gulf / Arabian peninsula where it is a minority practice (probably given the context associated with African slaves imported from the Horn) in Yemen, apparently Oman and the small Gulf states. Now somewhat less hysteric background: WHO Fact Sheet No 241 June 2000 FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION [http://www.who.int/inf-fs/en/fact241.html](http://www.who.int/inf-fs/en/fact241.html) “Prevalence and Distribution of FGM Most of the girls and women who have undergone genital mutilation live in 28 African countries, although some live in Asia and the Middle East.” – the largely African distribution. Female Genital Mutilation – The Facts [http://www.path.org/files/FGM-The-Facts.htm](http://www.path.org/files/FGM-The-Facts.htm) FGM is Practiced Globally • FGM is practiced in at least 26 of 43 African countries7; the prevalence varies from 98 percent in Somalia to 5 percent in Zaire. A review of country-specific Demographic and Health Surveys (DHS) shows FGM prevalence rates of 97 percent in Egypt8, 94.5 percent in Eritrea9, 93.7 percent in Mali 10, 89.2 percent in Sudan 11, and 43.4 percent in the Central African Republic.12 • FGM is also found among some ethnic groups in Oman, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen, as well as in parts of India, Indonesia, and Malaysia.13 _Again the African predominance and the qualifier for the Gulf, where insofar as there are North East African derived minorities it seems reasonable to guess the practice is among such groups_. I note that unlike in the case of African data, I am unable to locate firm studies of prevalence in Asia and most literature and programmatic focus on ending the practice seems to omit Asia entirely. It would appear from this context the prevalence is insignificant, unlike in Africa. For example in the resume from the Center for Reproductive Law & Policy global study mentions Asian minority groups only in passing. Female Circumcision/Female Genital Mutilation (FC/FGM): Global Laws and Policies Towards Elimination November 2000, Item: F027 [http://www.crlp.org/pub\_fac\_fgmicpd.htm](http://www.crlp.org/pub_fac_fgmicpd.htm) Prevalence of FC/FGM It is estimated that the worldwide prevalence of FC/FGM is about 130 million women, with an additional 2 million girls and women undergoing the procedure every year. FC/FGM is prevalent in about 28 African countries and among a few minority groups in Asia. The prevalence in African countries varies widely from about 5% in the Democratic Republic of Congo (former Zaire) and Uganda to 98% in Somalia. In addition, there are many immigrant women in Europe, Canada, and the United States who have undergone FC/FGM. It is estimated that 15% of all circumcised women have undergone the most severe form of FC/FGM - infibulation. However, approximately 80% to 90% of all circumcisions in Djibouti, Somalia, and Sudan are of this type. Very well, some very rough estimates over all. What we can glean then as, insofar as the bulk of the world’s Muslims do not live in Africa, but rather in Asia and the Middle East-North Africa, where except for Egypt, such practices are either unknown or minority practice, it is, as I originally stated, a gross and inaccurate distortion to characterize this as “Muslim” or in any way **popular** in the Islamic world in a generalized sense. Just to illustrate, look at the numbers: some 65 millions live in the Arab Maghreb, where the practice does not exist, some 45-50 millions in the Sham & Iraq area, again where the practice is unknown, some 60-70 millions in Iran, where the practice appears to be unknown, some 65-70 millions in Turkey, again where the practice is unknown. So, here we have, in the Islamic core, some **245 millions** of largely and indeed overwhelmingly Muslim populations in countries where the practice is essentially inexistent. Now we can add the handful of millions in the Gulf: around 23.5 millions in Saudi Arabia, where the practice is essentially unknown or unreported; 2 millions in Kuwait, which is not noted to have the practice extent; around a **half** million in Bahrain where a **minority** is reported to practice it; Qatar, around 700 k, same notation as Kuwait; Emirates, around 2.5 millions where it is noted as a minority practice; Oman roughly 2.7 millions, again where it is noted as a minority practice; Yemen, with its 18 millions is the only populated area where again it is noted as a minority practice. So in the Peninsula / Gulf we may add some 50 millions (rounding to a round number to account for estimations) where some **minority** of the populations practice female circumcisions. Let’s be fair and guess perhaps 1/5? 10 millions yes versus 40 millions not. Now then we could go on to account for Central Asian, Caucasian, Balkan, Sub-Continental and other Muslims where the practice is either unknown or essentially inexistent, we can easily add another several hundred million to the Muslims who do not practice female circumcision, and maybe a handful of millions to the count of those who do. **Pretty fucking popular then, isn’t it?** As we get a rather lopsided count against. So, we have only one Muslim nation with any demographic weight where it is a popular in any sense of the word, practice: Egypt with its 70 millions – although Sudan with its 37 millions is an ambiguous addition insofar as the practice is (as in Egypt) both Xian and Muslim, and in any rate apparently lower than Egypt. Rather clearly our “Drabble” is dribbling both ungrammatical and unfounded hysterical nonsense. Final word of advice, don’t try arguing with me in ignorance on Middle Eastern affaires. The manual by the way is medieval and a translation from the 19th century. While all fun and that, it is not the most advisable method to try to judge a literature based on what is available online, for free. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/59 "2003-06-11T07:28:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > > So, we have only one Muslim nation with any demographic weight where it is a popular in any sense of the word, practice: Egypt with its 70 millions – although Sudan with its 37 millions is an ambiguous addition insofar as the practice is (as in Egypt) both Xian and Muslim, and in any rate apparently lower than Egypt. I’d also throw in Nigeria, with another ~65 million Muslims, as a demographically major country. It does seem that severe versions of FGM are common in some sections of the Muslim population there. Of course, as I’ve already noted, it seems just as endemic in some Christian and ( I believe, though I’d have to double-check ) animist populations ( which make up the other half of Nigeria’s 130 million people ). At the same time some of the Muslim populations in Nigeria don’t practice FGM at all, like the Fulani ( and Yobe state, with a population of Kanuri, Fulani, Manga, and Hausa, among others, in the overwhelimgly Muslim northeast of Nigeria, has the lowest incidence in the country ). And just to show how local it can be, in overwhelmingly Muslim Niger, less than 5% of the population practices FGM ( of note - it borders Yobe province in Nigeria ). There is also reason to believe that is may be a fairly widespread ( if not very well quantified ) practice in at least a few areas of Indonesia, another big country, but there the practice seems to overwhelmingly be of the least invasive sort, hardly comparable to the ‘Pharaonic Circumcision’ found in the Horn, Nile and parts of the Sahel. Useful table: [http://www.state.gov/g/wi/rls/rep/9305.htm](http://www.state.gov/g/wi/rls/rep/9305.htm) - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261/60 "2003-06-11T07:41:10Z")
Actually, re-checking the figures for Nigeria, I’ll withdraw it - At “only” 25% of the populace, even if that number where overwhelmingly Muslim ( and there is nothing to indicate it is ) it can probably only be called _popular_ in the loosest of senses. - Tamerlane [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslim-women-makeup-and-veils/180261.md?page=4)