# Muslims and Sailing **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 5, 2003, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-and-sailing/186374 "2003-07-05T13:07:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-and-sailing/186374/21 "2003-07-05T20:43:59Z")
I believe ancient Islamic cultures were very advanced in water works, distribution, irrigation etc. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-and-sailing/186374/22 "2003-07-06T06:49:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lightkeeper \* > Some references note that a large portion of the Muslim army consisted of Coptic Memluks (not-yet-Arabized Egyptians). You’re confused. The Mamlouks which you must be thinking of were not at all Egyptian but a class of slave soldiers, largely of Turkic, Caucasian and Balkan extraction, although also of North East and other African extraction. The Copts were and are the Coptic Xian (local Orthodox) Church, who became Arabized (Arabic speaking) sometime at least by the 11th-13th centuries as I recall. I believe you’re confused conversion to Islam with Arabization, Arabization happened first, then conversion sometime in the late Crusades period, apparently in reaction to the Crusades. Finally, in the context of military usage, Amir al-Bahr is best (and indeed most literally) translated as Commander of the Sea. E.g., Amir al-Muminine, Commander of the Faithful. Amir comes from the verb to command and is only translated by analogy to mean prince or lord, it’s real meaning is leader / commander. Now somewhere online, I shall have to find the reference there is a really interesting e-book on technologies and economics of the Andalous, Islamic Spain, which by the way, delves into different ‘traditions’ in re irrigation, etc. Another item that occurs to, it should be noted that Barbary Pirates – North African based privateers at times raided as far north as Iceland during the late medieval / early Rennaissance period, so again we have Islamic navies of some import even in “European” dominated seas. Each happily raiding the other and making the common man miserable. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-and-sailing/186374/23 "2003-07-06T07:38:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > But naval warfare had changed forever and from then on ships would try to sink each other and not take each other in personal combat. Tom quibbled with the first bit of your post; I’m going to quibble with the last bit. While boarding did cease being the dominant tactic with the advent of the cannon, it certainly didn’t vanish. Boarding actions were common throughout the age of fighting sail. Nelson’s escapade at the Battle of Cape St. Vincent would probably be the most famous, but it was hardly unusual to take ships by boarding at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Publius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@Publius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Publius)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-and-sailing/186374/24 "2003-07-06T07:43:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > \*\* > > Finally, in the context of military usage, Amir al-Bahr is best (and indeed most literally) translated as Commander of the Sea. > > E.g., Amir al-Muminine, Commander of the Faithful. Amir comes from the verb to command and is only translated by analogy to mean prince or lord, it’s real meaning is leader / commander. \*\* Shukran, Collounsbury. I stand corrected; that was an extraordinarily clumsy translation on my part. How’d you learn Arabic, if I may ask? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-and-sailing/186374/25 "2003-07-06T09:31:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Publius \* > \*\*Shukran, Collounsbury. I stand corrected; that was an extraordinarily clumsy translation on my part. > > How’d you learn Arabic, if I may ask? \*\* Of course that should have been ‘its real meaning’ The translation wasn’t clumsy, just off in context. As for learning Arabic, I did several intensive language programs and then spent much of the last decade round and about the Mena region and Islamic Africa. I’m a corporate bedouine. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-and-sailing/186374/26 "2003-07-06T12:06:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gorsnak \* > Tom quibbled with the first bit of your post; I’m going to quibble with the last bit. While boarding did cease being the dominant tactic with the advent of the cannon, it certainly didn’t vanish. Boarding actions were common throughout the age of fighting sail. Nelson’s escapade at the Battle of Cape St. Vincent would probably be the most famous, but it was hardly unusual to take ships by boarding at the time. I never said anything else. I was referring to lightkeeper’s post > [@](#): > > The “Battle of the Masts” (Dhat-as-Sawari), in 655 AD; a Muslim fleet of 200 ships under Ibn Abi Sarh confronted a Byzantine fleet of 500 ships under Emperor Conastans II (in person). The battle was fought off the coast of Lycia. > > Not experienced in naval warfare, the Muslims resorted to creating a “virtual land”. They tied the masts of their own ships to the masts of the Byzantian ships, such that they can hop on and engage their enemy with swords and daggers… My point is that it is not a matter of them not being experienced but rather, that is the way naval battles were done at the time. And yes, boarding ships has been done in WWII but that does not change the fact that canon (and then torpedos, airplanes, missiles, submarines, etc) forever changed naval tactics. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-and-sailing/186374/27 "2003-07-06T12:21:57Z")
Madrid was founded in the 9th century by the Muslims and was provided with a system of underground tunnels for water supply which was copied from eastern cities. This underground system was continually expanded until about 1860 when a large aquaeduct was built which brought water to Madrid from the sierras about 40 miles away. The same system was used in other Muslim cities like Marrakech and Teheran where they survived until the 1930s. Their water works in Al-Andalus for irrigation and for garden fountains are also well known. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-and-sailing/186374/28 "2003-07-06T12:40:45Z")
I owuld name my Dhow “Jones.” just for the record. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-and-sailing/186374/29 "2003-07-06T13:23:27Z")
And, in other news, the Dhow “Jones” sank today as a consequence of the turbulent events in the Gulf Region 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Publius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@Publius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Publius)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-and-sailing/186374/30 "2003-07-07T05:18:56Z")
Thanks, **Collounsbury**. I’ve only been learning Arabic a very short time, and it’s refreshing to run into someone who can call me on it when I get it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-and-sailing/186374/31 "2003-07-07T07:10:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > … The same system was used in other Muslim cities like Marrakech and Teheran where they survived until the 1930s. Their water works in Al-Andalus for irrigation and for garden fountains are also well known. I believe this is in reply to my observation: the article I found, book actually, chapters of it online, noted the several different irrigation traditions in the Arab Muslim world. Apparently within Spain alone at least two were in use. As to Publius. Courage mate, courage. It takes a frightfully long time to get up to speed. Frightfully. Get your MSA down right also, then tackle a dialect. And don’t let people bamboozle you into Egyptian right away. It’s utility is often exagerated, and Shami often does quite as well in reality. Shami TV shows are beginning to displace Egyptian anyway. I personally despise the Egyptian accent and never use it unless forced. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-and-sailing/186374/32 "2003-07-07T13:56:28Z")
Col: Why would you despise an accent? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-and-sailing/186374/33 "2003-07-07T14:14:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Col: Why would you despise an accent? \*\* Because I hate the way it sounds, very much the way I despise southern accents. Entirely irrational, but there it is. I also don’t care for Egypt very much, however that is much less irrational than my feeling speaking like an Egyptian makes one sound like a big fat pushy lout. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-and-sailing/186374/34 "2003-07-07T15:57:02Z")
I don’t recall that passage in The Ancient Engineers, either. It’s currently on remainder in many chain bookstores… well worth a read, if only for the fact that distilled spirits were invented by “Mary the Jewess”. I still want to know where he figured that one out from. Excellent bit on the origin of the catapult/ballista, some learned words on Archimedes’ Mirror… It could, perhaps, stand for some updating, but still very quite excellent. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-and-sailing/186374/35 "2003-07-07T21:42:23Z")
Just noticed this… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > It’s the only book of his I’m reading right now - or read, to be exactly correct. In any event, the question has been answered. Well, it’s a hijack, but - For shame! You should really give his fiction a try. Especially as a gun afficianado. The short story a “A Gun for a Dinosaur” is darn near required reading for gun fans ( well, who are also sf fans as well 😉 ). Pick up a used copy of the short story collection The Best of L. Spargue de Camp. He’s not the best of the ‘Golden Age’ writers, but he has a nice wry sense of humour that infects his better work. Some of his **Viagens Interplanetarias** stories ( set in a future in which Brazil is the dominant power ) are fun, too. The Queen of Zamba for example is an enjoyable little planetary adventure. Oh, and Less Darkness Falls is a classic of the time-travel genre. Just a suggestion :). - Tamerlane [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-and-sailing/186374.md?page=1)