# Muslims Facing Toward Mecca Prayer Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 5, 2007, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-facing-toward-mecca-prayer-question/428919 "2007-12-05T17:14:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Nman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5fc32e/32.png) [@Nman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nman)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-facing-toward-mecca-prayer-question/428919/1 "2007-12-05T17:14:47Z")
I tried to Google this but got no good answers, (mostly blogs) Anyway, what is the deal if Muslims don’t face toward Mecca when prayer. Other than probably being disrespectful toward Allah, is that all there is to it? I don’t mean to sound stupid, but I don’t know how else to say it but if they don’t face Mecca, does the prayer not count? Does the prayer still count toward the daily 5 prayers? I am not talking about if they physically can’t do this. I know Islam makes exceptions for that kind of thing, like I know Muslims can eat pork if they find themselves starving and can’t get any other food. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-facing-toward-mecca-prayer-question/428919/2 "2007-12-05T17:47:58Z")
If one doesn’t know the direction of Mecca, they are allowed/expected to make their “best guess”… eg in most of the US it would be generally to the North East (the world is not flat). If however they know the direction of Mecca and intentionally face some other way… umm… why would they do that? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-facing-toward-mecca-prayer-question/428919/3 "2007-12-05T17:56:34Z")
[QUOTE=Nman] I tried to Google this but got no good answers, (mostly blogs) Anyway, what is the deal if Muslims don’t face toward Mecca when prayer. Other than probably being disrespectful toward Allah, is that all there is to it? I don’t mean to sound stupid, but I don’t know how else to say it but if they don’t face Mecca, does the prayer not count? Does the prayer still count toward the daily 5 prayers? I am not talking about if they physically can’t do this. I know Islam makes exceptions for that kind of thing, like I know Muslims can eat pork if they find themselves starving and can’t get any other food. [/QUOTE] Facing Mecca is part of the ritual. Adherence to the fine points of any religious ritual is generally considered to be a reflection of intent. If you could face Mecca, but refuse to, that’s a reflection of your intent. If your intent is trivial, the holders of the ritual are not likely to consider that your results will be well-received by the Great Grantor (the Cherisher and Sustainer of the Worlds, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful, the Master of the Day of Judgment, etc. etc depending on the religion at hand). All of this, of course, supposes that the whole thing works when done properly. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-facing-toward-mecca-prayer-question/428919/4 "2007-12-05T18:09:53Z")
But what does it mean to face Mecca? Along a great circle? Or a curve of constant heading? Or some other possibility? ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-facing-toward-mecca-prayer-question/428919/5 "2007-12-05T18:18:18Z")
[QUOTE=Hari Seldon] Along a great circle? [/QUOTE] Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-facing-toward-mecca-prayer-question/428919/6 "2007-12-05T18:25:29Z")
[QUOTE=KneadToKnow] Yes. [/QUOTE] So facing Mecca along a straight line through the body of the earth is right out? And what about in orbit? And on the moon? ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-facing-toward-mecca-prayer-question/428919/7 "2007-12-05T18:25:32Z")
In terms of the pedantics of the situation, what if you were at the antipodal point on the Earth from Mecca? What if you were in space? And, of course, what if you were _in_ Mecca? ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-facing-toward-mecca-prayer-question/428919/8 "2007-12-05T18:27:26Z")
[QUOTE=Indistinguishable] And, of course, what if you were _in_ Mecca? [/QUOTE] I believe one would face the [Kaaba](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba). ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-facing-toward-mecca-prayer-question/428919/9 "2007-12-05T18:29:21Z")
Not an expert on Islam by any means, but: In terms of the pedantics of the situation, what if you were at the antipodal point on the Earth from Mecca? _Then would not any direction be equally valid?_ What if you were in space? _Then wouldn’t you simply face earth?_ And, of course, what if you were _in_ Mecca? _Isn’t there a big black stone that you’re supposed to face?_ ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-facing-toward-mecca-prayer-question/428919/10 "2007-12-05T18:29:38Z")
[QUOTE=Sunspace] I believe one would face the [Kaaba](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba). [/QUOTE] Well…what if you were inside the Kaaba? 😃 Is there some Islamagnetic North pole, a theoretical point inside the building? ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-facing-toward-mecca-prayer-question/428919/11 "2007-12-05T18:33:05Z")
Apparently there has been a conference to determine what [direction](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qibla) Muslims should face in space. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-facing-toward-mecca-prayer-question/428919/12 "2007-12-05T18:36:06Z")
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp] Well…what if you were inside the Kaaba? 😃 Is there some Islamagnetic North pole, a theoretical point inside the building? [/QUOTE] [The Black Stone](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-facing-toward-mecca-prayer-question/428919/13 "2007-12-05T18:38:56Z")
Just a couple of the many previous threads discussing the issue, since guests can’t search. [Can Islam survive in space?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=436983) [What does a Muslim do if s/he doesn’t know the direction to Mecca, and can’t know?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=370502) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-facing-toward-mecca-prayer-question/428919/14 "2007-12-05T18:46:21Z")
The Master Speaks: [How do Muslims know which way to face when praying?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/001013.html) According to Unca Cecil, the calculation is done by the Great Circle method. The precise point of reference is the Kaaba, so in Mecca itself, one orients towards the Kaaba. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-facing-toward-mecca-prayer-question/428919/15 "2007-12-05T18:54:40Z")
Some further wiki-reading on the [qibla](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qibla) indicates that, inside the Kaaba, one can face in any direction to pray. The article also says that most Muslims will face towards Mecca using the great circle route although some will use the rhumb line, i.e., the bearing on a Mercator projection. Incidentally, the antipodal point for Mecca is in the middle of Pacific Ocean, so I doubt that the question of where to face Mecca from there occurs very often. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-facing-toward-mecca-prayer-question/428919/16 "2007-12-05T19:05:07Z")
[QUOTE=Terminus Est] [The Black Stone](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone) [/QUOTE] The [Black Stone](http://www.toursaudiarabia.com/images/kaaba-3-large.jpg) looks very familiar, but I can’t quite put my finger on the reason why. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-facing-toward-mecca-prayer-question/428919/17 "2007-12-05T19:32:28Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] The [Black Stone](http://www.toursaudiarabia.com/images/kaaba-3-large.jpg) looks very familiar, but I can’t quite put my finger on the reason why. [/QUOTE] Is that Jabba the Hut inside it? ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-facing-toward-mecca-prayer-question/428919/18 "2007-12-05T19:33:00Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] The [Black Stone](http://www.toursaudiarabia.com/images/kaaba-3-large.jpg) looks very familiar, but I can’t quite put my finger on the reason why. [/QUOTE] I double dog dare you to draw a comic strip highlighting the similarity, and submit it to the Danish newspaper of your choice. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-facing-toward-mecca-prayer-question/428919/19 "2007-12-05T19:36:20Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] Is that Jabba the Hut inside it? [/QUOTE] I was thinking Kenny. I’m going to a bad bad place. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-facing-toward-mecca-prayer-question/428919/20 "2007-12-05T19:42:35Z")
Come to think of it, it looks a bit like that thingy that lurked in the plant in _Alien_ [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-facing-toward-mecca-prayer-question/428919.md?page=2)