# Muslims have only themselves to blame for their poverty, misery and violence **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2002, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-have-only-themselves-to-blame-for-their-poverty-misery-and-violence/107761 "2002-05-07T19:17:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-have-only-themselves-to-blame-for-their-poverty-misery-and-violence/107761/21 "2002-05-08T03:39:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Truth Seeker \* > \*\*The problem is, of course, compounded by the OP’s failure to recognize that even people with vaguely Arabic last names may be neither Arab nor Muslim. Peter Medawar was British, for God’s sake! \*\* Well, although in Medewar’s case, he was Arab, and British. As I said, I don’t know if his background was Muslim, though. ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-have-only-themselves-to-blame-for-their-poverty-misery-and-violence/107761/22 "2002-05-08T04:01:08Z")
> [@](#): > > First, it would come as a great shock to Camus that he was a Muslim, what having been an atheist and all. That…made me laugh. That the absurdity of the statement did not strike me while reading the OP is yet funnier. That it happens to be my birthday today puts me in debt towards you for making the point… Thank you Truth I am as of now in a perpetual state of humbe admiration ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-have-only-themselves-to-blame-for-their-poverty-misery-and-violence/107761/23 "2002-05-08T04:14:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **The Nobel Prize Committee’s alleged Eurocentrism didn’t stop lots of Japanese from winning prizes.** Seven in “Science”. [http://www.eda.admin.ch/tokyo\_emb/e/home/scite/japin/janob.html](http://www.eda.admin.ch/tokyo_emb/e/home/scite/japin/janob.html) > [@](#): > > JAPANESE NOBEL LAUREATES IN SCIENCE > > Nobel Prize in Physics > > 1949 Hideki Yukawa > 1965 Shinichiro Tomonaga > 1973 Leo Esaki > > Nobel Prize in Chemistry > > 1981 Kenichi Fukui > 2000 Hideki Shirakawa > 2001 Ryoji Noyori > > Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine > > 1987 Susumu Tonegawa Two in Literature. [http://www.literature-awards.com/nobel\_prize\_literature.html](http://www.literature-awards.com/nobel_prize_literature.html) > [@](#): > > 1994 Kenzaburo Oe Japan, Fiction (1935-) Japanese > 1968 Yasunari Kawabata Japan, Fiction (1899-1972) Japanese One-half of a Peace Prize. [http://almaz.com/nobel/peace/peace.html](http://almaz.com/nobel/peace/peace.html) > [@](#): > > 1974 > The prize was divided equally between: > > SEÁN MAC BRIDE, President of the International Peace Bureau, Geneva, and the Commission of Namibia, United Nations, New York. > > EISAKU SATO, Prime Minister of Japan. Making a grand total of 9-1/2 Nobel Prizes for the Land of the Rising Sun. “Lots of Japanese”? Um… ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-have-only-themselves-to-blame-for-their-poverty-misery-and-violence/107761/24 "2002-05-08T04:42:24Z")
The last time I saw anything with a hole in it as big as this OP, Kate Winslett and Leo Di Caprio were jumping off the bloody thing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-have-only-themselves-to-blame-for-their-poverty-misery-and-violence/107761/25 "2002-05-08T08:28:44Z")
[devil’s advocate] > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > Most of the Muslim nations of the world were, until the middle of the 20th century, colonies of one imperial power or another. And I suppose that you think that those countries had no responsibility for that? > [@](#): > > There wasn’t much capital investment or education because the colonial powers didn’t want educated, economically strong colonies. The Market is strong, and not concerned with such irrelevancies as racism or nationalism. When it speaks, we should listen. > [@](#): > > So, of course, most of the Muslim countries missed the Industrial Revolution…so did most non-Muslim colonies. America didn’t. Canada didn’t. > [@](#): > > It’s not because they’re Muslim, though. That’s the point. The plight of Muslim countries is not due to any special antipathy from the West. [/devil’s advocate] Collounsbury > [@](#): > > Albert Camus was not a Muslim, he was French. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-have-only-themselves-to-blame-for-their-poverty-misery-and-violence/107761/26 "2002-05-08T10:25:25Z")
responsible for their own fate != poverty, misery and violence Once again, December sees one thing, and jumps to his own preset conclusions. You are beyond reason december. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-have-only-themselves-to-blame-for-their-poverty-misery-and-violence/107761/27 "2002-05-08T13:26:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Truth Seeker \*What might well have something to do with winning a Nobel prize is what country you live in, especially in the sciences. As most Muslims live in poorer countries, they generally have less of an opportunity to do research in, say, high-energy physics. > \ > Mahathir’s point about the tendency in Islamic thought to reject science _is_ interesting. The general point has been discussed in GD before. It would be even more interesting is to hear how his audience reacted. Mahathir’s statement illustrated the importance of culture. As we all know, some countries that were poor in the late 1940’s have succeeded in becoming wealthy and well-educated. E.g., Taiwan, South Korea, Israel, Japan. **Duck Duck Goose** – I am surprised that there were only 9.5 Japaneses Nobelists. It looks like **tomndebb** was correct that the prize committees are Eurocentric. ---
**Author:** ![Regina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d78d45/32.png) [@Regina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regina)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-have-only-themselves-to-blame-for-their-poverty-misery-and-violence/107761/28 "2002-05-08T13:57:55Z")
**december** : “Unfortunately, if Muslim states become more technologically advanced, their ability to wreak harm on Israel will be that much greater.” :rolleyes: To which “Muslim states,” exactly, do you refer? And couldn’t it be argued that “technologically advanced” nations would be _less_ likely to “wreak harm” on another nation? (When’s the last time Japan started a fight?) Why do you assume that if a “Muslim state” became more “technologically advanced,” its foreign policy would focus on harming Israel? Sorry if this gets posted twice; server problems. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-have-only-themselves-to-blame-for-their-poverty-misery-and-violence/107761/29 "2002-05-08T14:10:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AlaItalia \* > **december** : “Unfortunately, if Muslim states become more technologically advanced, their ability to wreak harm on Israel will be that much greater.” > > :rolleyes: > > To which “Muslim states,” exactly, do you refer? Unfortunately, almost all the Muslim states seem to hate Israel. > [@](#): > > And couldn’t it be argued that “technologically advanced” nations would be _less_ likely to “wreak harm” on another nation? That’s why I carefully said “_ability_ to wreak harm.” > [@](#): > > (When’s the last time Japan started a fight?) Why do you assume that if a “Muslim state” became more “technologically advanced,” its foreign policy would focus on harming Israel? This is the $64 question. Sooner or later, Israel’s enemies will become more technologically advanced, particularly in terms of their weapons. I hope they follow the example of Japan 2002, rather than Japan 1941. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-have-only-themselves-to-blame-for-their-poverty-misery-and-violence/107761/30 "2002-05-08T14:25:19Z")
Mahathir has said plenty of outrageous things in the past. Anti-semetic if you care to look that up. Highly suspicious charges of sodomy against his former number 2 Anwar. The guy is about 20 years past his usefulness and is about as pompous as they come in a region not known for the modesty of leaders. I am guessing, but I’m sure the snipped quotes are taken out of context or at least out of a 60-120 minute speech. Look up any international speech by Mahatir in the past decade and you’ll find some real good quotes in there. Maybe he has some real jems above, but Mahathir is a crank. To trot him out as one of your sources, December, is getting beyond tiring. ---
**Author:** ![Regina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d78d45/32.png) [@Regina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regina)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-have-only-themselves-to-blame-for-their-poverty-misery-and-violence/107761/31 "2002-05-08T15:42:41Z")
Question: To which “Muslim states,” exactly, do you refer? Answer: \*\*Unfortunately, almost all the Muslim states seem to hate Israel. \*\* Way to fudge, **december**. I guess you can’t name all of these “Muslim states that hate Israel” because you don’t _know_ what they are. > [@](#): > > Sooner or later, Israel’s enemies will become more technologically advanced Way to generalize, **december**. Please name for me these “Muslim states” and “Israel’s enemies.” Educate me. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-have-only-themselves-to-blame-for-their-poverty-misery-and-violence/107761/32 "2002-05-08T15:57:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AlaItalia \*\*\*Unfortunately, almost all the Muslim states seem to hate Israel. \*\* > > Educate me. OK, I’ll try. E.g, from the cite in the OP, Israel was recently slandered by a speaker at a worldwide Islamic conference. > [@](#): > > “… the Israelis massacred the Palestinians in Jenin and elsewhere …” [Mahathir] said. This false and defamatory statement is evidence of widespread anti-Israel feeling among Muslim nations. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-have-only-themselves-to-blame-for-their-poverty-misery-and-violence/107761/33 "2002-05-08T16:07:01Z")
Oh bloody wonderful, The Ryan brings his … wit to bear. Colonialism > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > And I suppose that you think that those countries had no responsibility for that? REsponsibility for being colonized? Oh, as much as any victim has responsibility for not being strong enough to fight off an attacker. > [@](#): > > The Market is strong, and not concerned with such irrelevancies as racism or nationalism. When it speaks, we should listen. The market is an abstraction, my dear, dear Ryan. Like law. It doesn’t ‘speak’ for it is not an entity in and of itself. Markets, plural, may or may not be strong depending on a number of factors, including institutional, and are indeed concerned with such **relevancies** as nationalism (even in modern financial markets there is clear econometric evidence of home market bias to a degree which portfolio theory would dismiss as irrational) and racism, for racism feeds into people’s perceptions of any given market, its workers, possibilities. As those perceptions make up what market estimation and valuation is, given a strong enough set of beliefs, as in re racist dismissal of a region, one can indeed expect systematic market failures. In the future, try to restrict your unlearned comments to your semantical gaming, which although uninteresting and tedious, at least doesn’t annoy me as much as your uninformed ignorance on economic matters. (As, e.g., your unlearned comments on corporations a few weeks back) Missing the Industrial Revolution > [@](#): > > America didn’t. Canada didn’t. Yes, they had access to capital, human and otherwise. They were independent or at least in the case of Canada, quasi-independent. Moreover, they had access to the same institutional frameworks that generated the capitalist revolution. Most of the rest of the world, outside of Western Europe, did not. > [@](#): > > That’s the point. The plight of Muslim countries is not due to any special antipathy from the West. I don’t believe a ‘special antipathy’ from the West ever entered into the equation before your useless intervention. The Camus response, however, was poorly phrased, although for the time period which Camus lived in, effectively Muslim =/ French, legal issues and all that. I should have phrased it differently, as Camus was of Euro French origin and never a Muslim, however I rather thought that Camus’ history should have been well enough known as to not make that necessary. BTW in re Muslim state hostility to Israel, I would say that is indeed a problem. However to juxtapose an often theoretical hostility (largely parroted to win Arab oil money, favors, with some popular support in a vague bandwagon way as few if any countries outside the MENA region have any history with Jews or Israel at all) with a concern for Israel if Muslim countries advance… I can’t find a worthy comment for what that juxtaposition says. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-have-only-themselves-to-blame-for-their-poverty-misery-and-violence/107761/34 "2002-05-08T16:07:27Z")
So do the UN, Amnesty, Human Rights Watch etc. all **hate** Israel? Must be very frustrating knowing that you’re sooo right and everybody else is sooo wrong. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-have-only-themselves-to-blame-for-their-poverty-misery-and-violence/107761/35 "2002-05-08T16:12:30Z")
December, a quote from MM is not evidence of widespread anti-Israel feeling among Muslim nations, it’s evidence of leadership posturing at an Arab sponsored summit. It tells us little per say about the depth etc. of such feeling. This is not necessarily to disagree that there is widespread anti-Israel sentiment, although I would characterize it as quite superficial outside of the Arab world, but you really need to learn something about evidence and argumentation. BTW, why are the quote functions malfunctioning again, it’s bloody irritating. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*OK, I’ll try. > > E.g, from the cite in the OP, Israel was recently slandered by a speaker at a worldwide Islamic conference. This false and defamatory statement is evidence of widespread anti-Israel feeling among Muslim nations. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-have-only-themselves-to-blame-for-their-poverty-misery-and-violence/107761/36 "2002-05-08T16:15:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Way to fudge, december. I guess you can’t name all of these “Muslim states that hate Israel” because you don’t know what they are. **December** needs to do his research. At least 9 predominantly Muslim states–Egypt, Jordan, Nigeria, Mauritania, Kazakstan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, and Turkey–have full diplomatic relations with Israel. Now one could ask if the citizens of those nations hate Israel, and if so, what percentage. As for the OP, not only is it clumsily and offensively phrased, but it begs the question it seeks to have answered. It is also inexact. There are Muslim nations in Africa, Central Asia, Europe (Albania), and Southeast Asia, as well as in the Middle East. Do they all have the same problems? Are they all full of “poverty, misery, and violence”? If so, would the same remedies help each country, or do they have unique cultural and societal problems that require different solutions? Is being Muslim a necessary cause of societal problems, or are there other causes? If Islamic culture causes “poverty, misery, and violence,” then how does one explain the cultural flowering of Dar al-Islam in the Middle Ages? How does one explain the literary and scientific achievements of Muslim poets and scholars like Rumi? Averroes? Hafiz? Avicenna? Al-Kwharizmi? Rhazes? Omar al-Khayyam? Mind you, the insensate Jew hatred in the Arabic press is disgusting, and there is a strong anti-Israel sentiment in many Muslim nations, but the same can be said of many non-Muslim nations, France, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Regina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d78d45/32.png) [@Regina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regina)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-have-only-themselves-to-blame-for-their-poverty-misery-and-violence/107761/37 "2002-05-08T16:24:50Z")
Thank you, **gobear** , for the clarification on the “Muslim states.” **december** ’s generalizing is evidence enough of the extent of his knowledge base, but his inability to answer a simple question is proof. I was going to ask him to name just ONE “Muslim state” but then on preview saw your post. Do you think if I still asked, he could name one now? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-have-only-themselves-to-blame-for-their-poverty-misery-and-violence/107761/38 "2002-05-08T16:43:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yojimbo \* > \*\*So do the UN, Amnesty, Human Rights Watch etc. all **hate** Israel? > > Must be very frustrating knowing that you’re sooo right and everybody else is sooo wrong. \*\* Unfortunately, this is essentially correct IMHO. (Except I wouldn’t say that **etc.** hates Israel. :)) The political factions that currently control the UN have made that organization very anti-Israel. E.g., the General Assembly [just voted](http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=07052002-100713-2099r) 74-4 to chastise Israel, but they refused to say anything against the perpetrators of yesterday’s suicide-bomber massacre. This lack of balance has unfortunately been routine at the UN for a long time. Amnesty International has very high standards. Few countries could meet their standards, particularly countries engaged in a war. They look more closely at Israel, so Israel receives a disproprotionate amount of their criticism. I believe a similar comment could be made about Ruman Rights Watch. As a Jew, I feel threatened by this situation. I don’t know where anti-Israel ends and anti-Semitism begins. The unfair opposition to Israel from many sources makes me quite uncomfortable. > [@](#): > > **Collounsbury** > December, a quote from MM is not evidence of widespread anti-Israel feeling among Muslim nations, it’s evidence of leadership posturing at an Arab sponsored summit. It tells us little per say about the depth etc. of such feeling. Sure, it’s posturing. That’s why it’s telling. The anti-Israel nature of the posturing tells us where this organization stands. As an analogy, suppose speakers at the World Jewish routinely made racist comments. We’d generalize that Jews hated minorities. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-have-only-themselves-to-blame-for-their-poverty-misery-and-violence/107761/39 "2002-05-08T16:55:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \*If Islamic culture causes “poverty, misery, and violence,” then how does one explain the cultural flowering of Dar al-Islam in the Middle Ages? How does one explain the literary and scientific achievements of Muslim poets and scholars like Rumi? Averroes? Hafiz? Avicenna? Al-Kwharizmi? Rhazes? Omar al-Khayyam? That’s a good question. I suspect Mahathir Mohamad made the comment to raise that sort of question. It’s unfortunately true that many Muslim countries do suffer from poverty, misery, and violence. But, why? My own uneducated answer is that cultures change over time. In the middle ages, Islamic culture was ahead of Christian culture in many respects, including scientific areas. E.g., as a mathematician, I’m aware that the important concept of _zero_ was developed by Muslims. However, as MM dramatically pointed out, Muslim culture, by and large, is has now fallen behind in the technical areas. How it came to lag behind, and what can be done to catch up are worth discussing. ---
**Author:** ![Sgt.J](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sgt.J](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sgt.J)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-have-only-themselves-to-blame-for-their-poverty-misery-and-violence/107761/40 "2002-05-08T17:31:12Z")
**decmber** , you seem to have a knack for “Troll Brinkmanship” (I can’t think of a proper term). Be that as it may, it does seem like the UN has a bias against Israel. It is, after all, a political body, prone to making decisions as much on politics as logic and or morality. I don’t have as much experience as some of you spending time in Muslim countries, but the majority of the people I have discussed the issue with in Saudi Arabia seem to have a rabid hatred of the Israelis. Anecdotal evidence at best to be sure, but it is a reflection of my experiences. As for the OP, I think you showed your personal bias with the choice of the Title of your thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-have-only-themselves-to-blame-for-their-poverty-misery-and-violence/107761.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-have-only-themselves-to-blame-for-their-poverty-misery-and-violence/107761.md?page=3)