# Muslims Who Are Too Or Infirm To Bow Down In Prayer **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 13, 2015, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-who-are-too-or-infirm-to-bow-down-in-prayer/740345 "2015-12-13T19:00:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-who-are-too-or-infirm-to-bow-down-in-prayer/740345/21 "2015-12-14T21:50:07Z")
[On this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Z6OWe_vfJ4) (no sound) you can see the king of Saudi Arabia praying inside the Kaaba while sitting on a chair. Two other people can be seen praying in the usual way. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-who-are-too-or-infirm-to-bow-down-in-prayer/740345/22 "2015-12-16T07:18:43Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Are you serious? A “mild taboo”? “Doing the movements”? A “very strong taboo”? I was raised Catholic in stricter times than these, and never saw or experienced any such thing.\* And the Pope doesn’t care–I can guarantee that. What, you’ve never seen a parent correct a child who just crossed himself wrong, or who sat when he was supposed to stand? Or someone who glared at a stranger who made a mess of the Cross, but who would not even have noticed someone who simply stood quietly without turning those two simple hand movements into some sort of happening? That’s all I read into **leahcim** ’s post. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-who-are-too-or-infirm-to-bow-down-in-prayer/740345/23 "2015-12-16T12:39:28Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > What, you’ve never seen a parent correct a child who just crossed himself wrong, or who sat when he was supposed to stand? Or someone who glared at a stranger who made a mess of the Cross, but who would not even have noticed someone who simply stood quietly without turning those two simple hand movements into some sort of happening? That’s all I read into **leahcim** ’s post. I read the MEANING of what the OP posted by the WORD he used. That’s how I generally do it. What you said is not what “taboo” means. Taboo means something forbidden or banned by a group or culture. > [@](#): > > taboo, noun (plural taboos). > 4. a prohibition or interdiction of anything; exclusion from use or practice: > _One of the strongest taboos in all modern societies is against incest._ > Synonyms: ban, proscription, embargo, interdiction; no-no. > 5. the system, practice, or act whereby things are set apart as sacred, forbidden for general use, or placed under a prohibition or interdiction. > the condition of being so set apart, forbidden, or interdicted. > 6. exclusion from social relations; ostracism. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-who-are-too-or-infirm-to-bow-down-in-prayer/740345/24 "2015-12-16T12:59:40Z")
Right, but it doesn’t mean “something banned so thoroughly it gets you stoned.” The definition used is 4 in your cite. Not crossing yourself is unexpected but may actually be correct; not standing or kneeling is justified often enough that it doesn’t even raise eyebrows. But crossing yourself wrong will get rebukes. It is very much taboo, specially if done wrong enough to be understood as disrespecting the sign (as opposed to simply being confused about it). At that point it would get called sacrilege. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-who-are-too-or-infirm-to-bow-down-in-prayer/740345/25 "2015-12-16T13:51:15Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > Do they have to get like a special dispensation from a cleric to be excused from bowing down? It is useful to repeat, in Islam there is no idea of the cleric or the priest. Is it hard for many to understand this, but it simply is not existing. AK84 correctly highlights > [@AK84](#): > > The decision to do so is yours alone. It is true in fact about all things in Islam. Some people of course like to get the fatwa (an opinion) of a scholar because that is how they are, and it seems to me that converts in the west can never quite shake their orientation to the idea of religious priesthoods, but it is not necessary. in any case it is quite common for the elderly not to perform the full rakaats. > [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > There’s an Arabic phrase, I think it’s transliterated as “Insha’Allah”, that basically means “as Allah wills”. No, this does not mean as God wills, it means If God Wills (it). In sha’ Allah. In=if. The phrase as or what God willed is Ma sha’ Allah. What God will(s/ed). But it feels a bit strange to use it for such a circumstance, normally it is said for good things, while for bad things we say more frequently Hamdoulillah or its connected phrase. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s not what the phrase means. That phrase is used when talking about something that might happen in the future, as in: I’ll be healthy next year, God willing. correct. > [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](#): > > I’ve worked with Muslims quite a bit. Once, when driving back from a meeting, I had an Egyptian General in my car. He mentioned to me that he had to pray; knowing the normal ritual, I asked him if he wanted me to stop somewhere. He said no, given the circumstances he would pray while we were driving, he just wanted to let me know why he wasn’t saying anything to me for a few minutes. > > True gentleman, he was. this is the proper way to be a muslim, not those who force ostentatiously the prayer. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-who-are-too-or-infirm-to-bow-down-in-prayer/740345/26 "2015-12-16T15:14:17Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Right, but it doesn’t mean “something banned so thoroughly it gets you stoned.” The definition used is 4 in your cite. Not crossing yourself is unexpected but may actually be correct; not standing or kneeling is justified often enough that it doesn’t even raise eyebrows. But crossing yourself wrong will get rebukes.\*\* It is very much taboo, specially if done wrong enough to be understood as disrespecting the sign (as opposed to simply being confused about it). At that point it would get called sacrilege.\*\* So it’s like a gang sign? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-who-are-too-or-infirm-to-bow-down-in-prayer/740345/27 "2015-12-16T17:42:16Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Right, but it doesn’t mean “something banned so thoroughly it gets you stoned.” The definition used is 4 in your cite. Not crossing yourself is unexpected but may actually be correct; not standing or kneeling is justified often enough that it doesn’t even raise eyebrows. But crossing yourself wrong will get rebukes. It is very much taboo, specially if done wrong enough to be understood as disrespecting the sign (as opposed to simply being confused about it). At that point it would get called sacrilege. Are you a practicing Catholic? Some rites of the Catholic church (like the Byzantine rite my mother was raised in–and yes, they ARE in communion with the Pope) cross themselves “wrong” (i.e. right shoulder then left). Geez, what are you getting out of belaboring this? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-who-are-too-or-infirm-to-bow-down-in-prayer/740345/28 "2015-12-17T08:06:01Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Are you a practicing Catholic? Yes. > [@](#): > > Some rites of the Catholic church (like the Byzantine rite my mother was raised in–and yes, they ARE in communion with the Pope) cross themselves “wrong” (i.e. right shoulder then left). And that wouldn’t raise any eyebrows. More than a Roman Catholic does it that way, if using their left hand to make the sign. > [@](#): > > Geez, what are you getting out of belaboring this? I was just pointing out that some of us had undestood perfectly what **leahcim** meant, unlike some people who apparently have issues reading their own cites. But what is your beef? Do you think it’s ok to make fun of a ceremony that you are attending? Because I don’t think it is, whether the ceremony is religious, civil or private. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-who-are-too-or-infirm-to-bow-down-in-prayer/740345/29 "2015-12-17T09:05:29Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > It is useful to repeat, in Islam there is no idea of the cleric or the priest. Is it hard for many to understand this, but it simply is not existing. Thats only true for Sunni Islam. Shia, Twelver and Ismali Islam all have more specific roles for Imams which is much closer to the idea of an annointed priest in Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-who-are-too-or-infirm-to-bow-down-in-prayer/740345/30 "2015-12-19T11:14:31Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Thats only true for Sunni Islam. Shia, Twelver and Ismali Islam all have more specific roles for Imams which is much closer to the idea of an annointed priest in Christianity. No they don’t. The fact that Islam does not have a priesthood is pretty fundamental to all sects and accusing Shias of having “priests” is one of the thing Sunni extremists like to do. For the 561st time, Imam is not a priest. Anyone leading a prayer st anytime is an Imam. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-who-are-too-or-infirm-to-bow-down-in-prayer/740345/31 "2015-12-19T17:06:33Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Another example is, if you’re in a town and everyone is praying in the wrong direction, you join with them and pray the same direction they are. The togetherness of the activity is more important than the exact direction of the qibla. > > (Which can be pretty wide anyway; aiming in the correct quarter is good enough.) Most of the mosques I went into in Egypt had a carpet pattern that laid out rectangles with an arch pattern at the head of the rectangle, pointing the way to Mecca. Plus, the niche and steps up to the preacher’s platform were at the head of the congregation area in the direction of Mecca. But, I suppose if you are not in a mosque, you make your best educated guess. > [@AK84](#): > > No they don’t. The fact that Islam does not have a priesthood is pretty fundamental to all sects and accusing Shias of having “priests” is one of the thing Sunni extremists like to do. > > For the 561st time, Imam is not a priest. Anyone leading a prayer st anytime is an Imam. So “cleric” or “imam” in its typical western use just means someone educated and knowledgeable who feels capable of preaching and leading prayer or has assumed that role? Do mosque congregations typically hire someone in the role of “pastor” or whatever the job is called? I gather what you are saying is there is no formal investiture or credentials that distinguish a person as “cleric”? ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-who-are-too-or-infirm-to-bow-down-in-prayer/740345/32 "2015-12-19T17:17:37Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > … > So “cleric” or “imam” in its typical western use just means someone educated and knowledgeable who feels capable of preaching and leading prayer or has assumed that role? Do mosque congregations typically hire someone in the role of “pastor” or whatever the job is called? I gather what you are saying is there is no formal investiture or credentials that distinguish a person as “cleric”? At least in the Sunni world, that seems to be the case. Whether or not a person is an imam is primarily determined by social consensus among Muslims - if most Muslims in your area think you are an imam, you are, else you are not. By contrast, Catholicism has a strict system of appointments where whether or not someone is a priest is entirely dependent on whether or not they meet the fundamental requirements (e.g. be a man, be over the age of majority, not insane, etc.) and have been ordained by a bishop. If a Catholic thinks that he can priest or de-priest someone via social consensus, he has ipso facto converted to Protestantism. This is not to say that there aren’t schools that people go to to become imams or that those schools are irrelevant. They are important. What matters is that no amount of diploma waving can force a group of Muslims to accept you as an imam if they don’t want to. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-who-are-too-or-infirm-to-bow-down-in-prayer/740345/33 "2015-12-19T17:42:00Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > … If a Catholic thinks that he can priest or de-priest someone via social consensus, he has ipso facto converted to Protestantism. > > This is not to say that there aren’t schools that people go to to become imams or that those schools are irrelevant. They are important. What matters is that no amount of diploma waving can force a group of Muslims to accept you as an imam if they don’t want to. So being a Muslim cleric is like being a Baptist one? It helps to have that Divinity degree, but actually anyone can do it… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sasquatch\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8491ac/32.png) [@Sasquatch\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sasquatch_1)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-who-are-too-or-infirm-to-bow-down-in-prayer/740345/34 "2015-12-20T00:39:48Z")
I’d say Ayatollah Khameini and the other religious leaders of Iran are priests in every way that matters. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-who-are-too-or-infirm-to-bow-down-in-prayer/740345/35 "2015-12-20T08:37:31Z")
> [@Sasquatch](#): > > I’d say Ayatollah Khameini and the other religious leaders of Iran are priests in every way that matters. No they are not. Ayatollah is a scholarly title. Not a religious one. [QUOTE=md2000] So “cleric” or “imam” in its typical western use just means someone educated and knowledgeable who feels capable of preaching and leading prayer or has assumed that role? Do mosque congregations typically hire someone in the role of “pastor” or whatever the job is called? I gather what you are saying is there is no formal investiture or credentials that distinguish a person as “cleric”? [/QUOTE] No. Imam just means anyone leading any prayer. You don’t need formal qualifications for that. In Shiaism, there is also a concept of [Imam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelve_Imams#List_of_Imams), who are supposed to be the righty apponted successors of the Prophet according to Shia doctrine. It is however, different in every aspect from a prayer leader. ---
**Author:** ![Sasquatch\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8491ac/32.png) [@Sasquatch\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sasquatch_1)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-who-are-too-or-infirm-to-bow-down-in-prayer/740345/36 "2015-12-20T23:06:06Z")
[quote=“AK84, post:35, topic:740345”] No they are not. Ayatollah is a scholarly title. Not a religious one. That’s pretty disingenuous, or you’re being incredibly picky. Like I said, every way that matters. Are there any Ayatollahs of mathematics? It is a title solely used in Shia theological circles, the only “scholars” with the title Ayatollah are senior clerics - ergo, priests. They don’t use the word priest. No surprise, priest isn’t an Arabic word as far as I know. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-who-are-too-or-infirm-to-bow-down-in-prayer/740345/37 "2015-12-22T06:35:24Z")
I was on the Megabus from Chicago to Kansas City, and noticed the muslim man across the aisle from me praying. Obviously, the bus didn’t stop for him to pray, and the buswas headed West. So he prayed as correctly as he could in the circumstances. There was no way to wash, so he went through the motions of washing; he couldn’t kneel down, so he sat in his seat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-who-are-too-or-infirm-to-bow-down-in-prayer/740345.md?page=1)