# Mussolini - the 20th Century's biggest idiot? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 17, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mussolini-the-20th-centurys-biggest-idiot/676554 "2013-12-17T14:30:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mussolini-the-20th-centurys-biggest-idiot/676554/41 "2013-12-23T16:25:36Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > No, operations in the Balkans did not delay the launching of Barbarossa, the weather and lack of logistical preparations did. The tentative start date for Barbarossa was set for May 15 but was pushed back to June 22. Operations in Greece were completed on April 30, and German forces used in the Balkans were back in position for the launching of Barbarossa by mid-May. Spring 1941 had been particularly wet and the rivers in Eastern Europe were at flood into late spring. Even had the weather not been particularly bad, May 15 was probably too optimistic of a start date to begin with. > > The idea that the operations in the Balkans delayed the launching of Barbarossa by six weeks and that those ‘lost’ six weeks saved the Soviet Union stems from the understandable desire to give some meaning to the British defeat in Greece. Not only had Britain been quickly kicked off of the continent again, the forces sent to Greece had been pulled from North Africa where the British had the Italians on the ropes pushing them back through Libya. Had the forces not been diverted to Greece, they might have driven the Italians out of Libya, ending the North African campaign in spring 1941. As it turned out, the arrival of the Africa Corps prevented Italian defeat and the fighting in North Africa would continue for two more years. Barbarossa also didn’t fail due to the Russian winter; it failed due to the Red Army, the vast distances in Russia and logistics. This is true and Churchill’s desire to come to the aid of the plucky Greeks was an unmitigated disaster, strategically. However, a case could be made that the German decision to devote resources to North Africa did them no good, either. Assuming that the Germans had a chance in WW2, their only one was to crush the Soviet will to fight. Engaging in a major campaign in North Africa diverted scarse German resources away from that. While the British decision to help out the Greeks was a disaster, it wasn’t a fatal one. The German decision to press on in North Africa - especially to cram troops into Tunisia in the face of Allied success - was, I would argue, a far worse mistake. At least 230,000 German troops went into the bag in Tunisia. That’s more than twice as many as were captured at Stalingrad. The Germans were only there in the first place to pull Mussolini’s nuts out of the fire. It could be argued that propping him up cost them very badly, maybe even cost them the war (assuming of course that the resorces so expended would have swung the war against the Soviets in German favour -which I strongly doubt) - albeit in North Africa, not Greece. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mussolini-the-20th-centurys-biggest-idiot/676554/42 "2013-12-23T20:26:00Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The German decision to press on in North Africa - especially to cram troops into Tunisia in the face of Allied success - was, I would argue, a far worse mistake. At least 230,000 German troops went into the bag in Tunisia. That’s more than twice as many as were captured at Stalingrad. Rommel certainly wasn’t thrilled that Hitler found the troops to throw into Tunisia after the Allied landings in French North Africa in November 1942 after he’d been operating on a shoestring in Libya and Egypt. I agree that it certainly didn’t make sense strategically to send troops to Tunisia only to leave them forced to surrender. The figure you are using is the number of Axis troops that surrendered in Tunisia though, not the number of German troops. The number of Germans was in the [100,000-130,000 range](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunisia_Campaign#Notes): > [@](#): > > Writer Rick Atkinson states that Axis losses remain uncertain, and due to numerous factors, it is estimated that the German Army lost 8,500 men killed during the campaign while the Italian Army lost 3,700 men killed. Atkinson estimates that a further 40-50,000 Axis soldiers were wounded.[11] The British official campaign historian Major-General I.S.O. Playfair claims the total number of unwounded prisoners taken, according to Allied records, amounted to 238,243 men; 101,784 Germans, 89,442 Italians, and 47,017 men of an unspecified nationality.[1] Atkinson also states these figures and states that a quarter of a million men captured is a “reasonable estimate”.[11] Playfair notes that the American Official History claims 275,000 Axis soldiers captured, an 18th Army Group calculation of 244,500, Rommel’s estimate of 130,000 Germans captured, and von Arnim’s estimate of 100,000 German and 200,000 Italian captured. The number of Germans who surrendered in the final capitulation at Stalingrad was slightly less than this, but the total losses in the encirclement at Stalingrad was higher. [Link is to a pdf file](http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/030/30-5-1/CMH_Pub_30-5-1.pdf), Ziemke wrote > [@](#): > > Sixth Army lost 28,000 men between 22 November and 23 December. > On 18 December the army reported a ration strength of 246,000, including 13,000 Rumanians, 19,300 Russian auxiliaries, and 6,000 wounded Essentially all of those drawing rations from Sixth Army on December 18, 1942 were killed or captured, only a small number of wounded were flown out. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mussolini-the-20th-centurys-biggest-idiot/676554/43 "2013-12-23T20:45:21Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Rommel certainly wasn’t thrilled that Hitler found the troops to throw into Tunisia after the Allied landings in French North Africa in November 1942 after he’d been operating on a shoestring in Libya and Egypt. I agree that it certainly didn’t make sense strategically to send troops to Tunisia only to leave them forced to surrender. The figure you are using is the number of Axis troops that surrendered in Tunisia though, not the number of German troops. The number of Germans was in the [100,000-130,000 range](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunisia_Campaign#Notes):The number of Germans who surrendered in the final capitulation at Stalingrad was slightly less than this, but the total losses in the encirclement at Stalingrad was higher. [Link is to a pdf file](http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/030/30-5-1/CMH_Pub_30-5-1.pdf), Ziemke wroteEssentially all of those drawing rations from Sixth Army on December 18, 1942 were killed or captured, only a small number of wounded were flown out. My mistake. I remembered the 230 K figure but forgot that many of those would not be German. That quibble aside, do you agree or disagree with the analysis? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mussolini-the-20th-centurys-biggest-idiot/676554/44 "2013-12-24T07:59:01Z")
In general yes; throwing troops away in Tunisia cost Germany more than it was really worth. The forces that Rommel had sent to him to fight the North African campaign up until November 1942 when he was retreating back to the Mareth Line to join up with the forces arriving in Tunisia to face the Allies moving east into Tunisia from Algeria were never very great though, consisting largely of two panzer divisions, the 15th and 21st, and one motorized division, the 90th Light. With that rather small force he tied up much larger Commonwealth forces for a long time. The question of where the Commonwealth forces could more profitably have been used is debatable, but the threat of being able to land back on the continent anywhere in the Mediterranean would require the Germans and Italians to garrison it with a larger force than was sent to Rommel, as they did historically when faced with this situation after the fall of Tunisia. I’d go even further than you in strongly doubting that the forces devoted to North Africa could have swung the situation on the Eastern Front and say it wouldn’t have with pretty much complete certainty. Also although they were of as dubious quality as the Rumanians and Hungarians, the Italians did devote a considerable force to the Eastern Front in the [Eighth Army](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Army_in_Russia) at 235,000 men. Tunisia could only have been a delaying action for the Germans, but there was too little thought given far too late about how to get their forces out once they’d been sent over. Although there were huge and obvious differences in the distances involved, during the Sicilian campaign the Germans quickly realized that a hard fought delaying action was all that could be conducted and planned and carried out an evacuation across the Strait of Messina of not just their troops but all of their equipment, vehicles and supplies as well. ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mussolini-the-20th-centurys-biggest-idiot/676554/45 "2013-12-24T12:14:21Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Mussolini - the 20th Century’s biggest idiot? Hitler thought he was the cat’s meow. It were Mussolini who inspired Hitler beyond his own means … and succeeded by sheer audacity. But I’m not sure if I consider Mussolini “an idiot”, exactly. He achieved far more than he was worth and that takes a fair bit of smarts - devious as that might have been. He impressed Hitler by taking him for a tour of Italy’s air superiority - from one air strip to the other. Little did Hitler know that Benito had his air force fly ahead, showing off the very same planes at various locations, over and over again. Poor Schicklgruber was duped, but good! Mussolini an idiot? Naw, I don’t think so. No more than any other leader who’s been led to believe that his subjects love him and are behind him 100 percent. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mussolini-the-20th-centurys-biggest-idiot/676554/46 "2013-12-24T14:17:13Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > Hitler thought he was the cat’s meow. It were Mussolini who inspired Hitler beyond his own means … and succeeded by sheer audacity. > > But I’m not sure if I consider Mussolini “an idiot”, exactly. He achieved far more than he was worth and that takes a fair bit of smarts - devious as that might have been. > > He impressed Hitler by taking him for a tour of Italy’s air superiority - from one air strip to the other. Little did Hitler know that Benito had his air force fly ahead, showing off the very same planes at various locations, over and over again. Poor Schicklgruber was duped, but good! > Mussolini an idiot? Naw, I don’t think so. No more than any other leader who’s been led to believe that his subjects love him and are behind him 100 percent. Yes, Il Duce was a master of deception. He also doubled the number of divisions in the Italian Army-by halving their size. It made more billets for officers, and looked good (on paper)! I think Mussolini really thought he could ride on Hitler’s coattails-and steal a big chunk of Africa in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mussolini-the-20th-centurys-biggest-idiot/676554/47 "2013-12-24T19:03:13Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Yes, Il Duce was a master of deception. He also doubled the number of divisions in the Italian Army-by halving their size. It made more billets for officers, and looked good (on paper)! I think Mussolini really thought he could ride on Hitler’s coattails-and steal a big chunk of Africa in the process. Stealing a piece of Africa might have been the only accomplishment on Mussolini’s score card. But then, even his relatively primitive armory against bare-footed Ethiopians with blunted sticks was a walk in the park. God only knows why Hitler was impressed by it. Perhaps he couldn’t find Ethiopia on the map and assumed it was an enormous kingdom stretching from the Indian Subcontinent to Terra Del Fuego! ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mussolini-the-20th-centurys-biggest-idiot/676554/48 "2013-12-24T19:34:07Z")
The Italian Air Force had some good bomber designs, but the fighters were woefully under-armed. No autocannon, & rarely more than two machine guns. Like going to a gunfight with a knife. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mussolini-the-20th-centurys-biggest-idiot/676554/49 "2013-12-26T08:11:11Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Hitler was a jerk. > Mussolini bit his weenie, now it doesn’t work. I don’t think that Mussolini really did that-I think somebody made that up! ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mussolini-the-20th-centurys-biggest-idiot/676554/50 "2013-12-26T08:38:47Z")
Italy hasn’t produced much else other than buffoons. It must be _ **opera buffa** _ in their blood. I mean, look who they’ve had in government - Mussolini, Cicciolina, and Berlusconi - comic idiots all of them! ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mussolini-the-20th-centurys-biggest-idiot/676554/51 "2013-12-26T17:08:20Z")
Hitler’s wars made sense-he invaded the USSR in order to steal a “lebensraum”’ for his master race to colonize. The war was a big gamble-but had he won, Germany would become a multi-continental superpower. What was Mussolini going to do with Greece? there was nothing for him in it-why bother? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mussolini-the-20th-centurys-biggest-idiot/676554/52 "2013-12-26T22:27:35Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > Italy hasn’t produced much else other than buffoons. It must be _ **opera buffa** _ in their blood. I mean, look who they’ve had in government - Mussolini, Cicciolina, and Berlusconi - comic idiots all of them! This sort of thread shitting is really not appropriate. Aside from the clear evidence that Alighieri, Bernini, Bramante, Buonarroti, da Vinci, Galilei, and numerous others present that makes your post look stupid, it was clearly intended to be nothing more than a cheap shot at an entire nation intended to rile up other posters. Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mussolini-the-20th-centurys-biggest-idiot/676554/53 "2013-12-26T23:20:28Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > This sort of thread shitting is really not appropriate. Aside from the clear evidence that Alighieri, Bernini, Bramante, Buonarroti, da Vinci, Galilei, and numerous others present that makes your post look stupid, it was clearly intended to be nothing more than a cheap shot at an entire nation intended to rile up other posters. > > Knock it off. > > [/Moderating] You missed out [Gianluigi Buffon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gianluigi_Buffon), one of the best goalkeepers (Soccer) of all time ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mussolini-the-20th-centurys-biggest-idiot/676554/54 "2013-12-27T00:06:12Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > You missed out [Gianluigi Buffon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gianluigi_Buffon), one of the best goalkeepers (Soccer) of all time If it was for all time, I would have gone for [Dino Zoff](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dino_Zoff) ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mussolini-the-20th-centurys-biggest-idiot/676554/55 "2013-12-27T06:43:57Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > … it was clearly intended to be nothing more than a cheap shot at an entire nation intended to rile up other posters. No, only politicians … but namely Mussolini, Cicciolina, and Berlusconi. Are Alighieri, Bernini, Bramante, Buonarroti, da Vinci, Galilei in parliament as well? ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mussolini-the-20th-centurys-biggest-idiot/676554/56 "2013-12-27T06:50:02Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > You missed out one of the best goalkeepers (Soccer) of all time **Gianluigi Buffon** > [@GIGObuster](#): > > If it was for all time, I would have gone for **Dino Zoff** Rubbish to both of them! The best Italian in any sport is **Pierluigi Collina**. The **BEST** of the **BEST**! :):)🙂 ---
**Author:** ![1046190](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/f4b2a3/32.png) [@1046190](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1046190)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mussolini-the-20th-centurys-biggest-idiot/676554/57 "2014-05-16T21:40:41Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > No, only politicians … but namely Mussolini, Cicciolina, and Berlusconi. Are Alighieri, Bernini, Bramante, Buonarroti, da Vinci, Galilei in parliament as well? Even that’s inaccurate. Machiavelli’s widely considered the father of modern political science. Anyways, Mussolini jumping into the war when he did doesn’t make him an idiot. The Nazi’s were outside Paris and the British had been pushed off the continent. Japan was gobbling up their territory in the East. By all accounts, it seemed like a sure thing. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mussolini-the-20th-centurys-biggest-idiot/676554/58 "2014-05-17T01:44:41Z")
And Cicciolina was hotter than any of the others, though [she hasn’t aged well.](http://ianundercover.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Schwarzenegger-Cicciolina.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mussolini-the-20th-centurys-biggest-idiot/676554/59 "2014-05-17T04:18:03Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > [rimshot]That’s the difference between chasing Italian babes and German babes [/rimshot] > Although seriously, there are some hot German babes out there, but that doesn’t make the joke work I’m on board with you, **yellowjacketcoder**. ---
**Author:** ![Damfino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Damfino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damfino)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mussolini-the-20th-centurys-biggest-idiot/676554/60 "2014-05-17T22:22:17Z")
> [@1046190](#): > > Even that’s inaccurate. Machiavelli’s widely considered the father of modern political science. > > Anyways, Mussolini jumping into the war when he did doesn’t make him an idiot. The Nazi’s were outside Paris and the British had been pushed off the continent. Japan was gobbling up their territory in the East. By all accounts, it seemed like a sure thing. Japan was not a belligerent when Italy declared war. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mussolini-the-20th-centurys-biggest-idiot/676554.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mussolini-the-20th-centurys-biggest-idiot/676554.md?page=4)