# Must a grown man risk his life for an unrelated mother & child? What if they're related? Or, anothe **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 19, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/must-a-grown-man-risk-his-life-for-an-unrelated-mother-child-what-if-theyre-related-or-anothe/536663 "2010-04-19T20:52:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/must-a-grown-man-risk-his-life-for-an-unrelated-mother-child-what-if-theyre-related-or-anothe/536663/101 "2010-04-21T16:13:20Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > “White people are superior to my own race. I should give up my seat on the bus for them.” Altruism? If that’s what you really think and want to do, then yes. Altruism doesn’t have to be logical. We’re actually talking about people being willing to give up theire own _lives_, though, not just a seat on a bus. If someone’s willing to die for you, then it’s kind of churlish to nitpick their motivations. ---
**Author:** ![Satchmo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/satchmo/32/4223_2.png) [@Satchmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satchmo)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/must-a-grown-man-risk-his-life-for-an-unrelated-mother-child-what-if-theyre-related-or-anothe/536663/102 "2010-04-21T21:02:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [Moderator Note]For copyright purposes, could you instead provide a link to the article?[/Moderator Note] Sorry **Czarcasm**! It was one anecdote in his Speech as Guest of Honor at the 1961 World Science Fiction Convention. I thought most people wouldn’t want to read the whole thing, so I just cut out the relevant part, maybe 20% of the whole. Anyway here’s a link for anyone interested: [http://americandna.org/rah1961.htm](http://americandna.org/rah1961.htm) I meant no copyright violation and will check first in future if I have any doubts. Consider my ignorance fought, for today, anyway. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/must-a-grown-man-risk-his-life-for-an-unrelated-mother-child-what-if-theyre-related-or-anothe/536663/103 "2010-04-21T21:24:29Z")
I have a couple of follow-up questions: one for clarification, one an expansion. First, to those of you who voted that Leroy has no obligation to risk his life here: were you all assuming the woman and baby were no relationship to him? Or are you saying that, even if the baby in question is **his** baby, he is not morally or ethically obliged to do everything possible, including giving up his own life, to save the baby? Second, to everyone: do you see the most altrustic options as basically selfish? Because I do. I voted as I did–that I hope that, in Leroy’s place, I’d have the balls to get my ass out of the lifeboat and put the woman and baby in my place–because in my eyes, the guilt of not doing so would be intolerable. Much worse than dying, in my view. But then, I think all actions are essentially selfish. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/must-a-grown-man-risk-his-life-for-an-unrelated-mother-child-what-if-theyre-related-or-anothe/536663/104 "2010-04-21T21:24:41Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If that’s what you really think and want to do, then yes. Altruism doesn’t have to be logical. > > We’re actually talking about people being willing to give up theire own _lives_, though, not just a seat on a bus. If someone’s willing to die for you, then it’s kind of churlish to nitpick their motivations. Isn’t this how bodyguards must feel? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/must-a-grown-man-risk-his-life-for-an-unrelated-mother-child-what-if-theyre-related-or-anothe/536663/105 "2010-04-22T13:14:41Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > if the baby in question is **his** baby. I said previously that mother and child were basically fucked if they were depending on me giving up my seat. I assumed the child was not mine. Hell, I’ve never even met the woman. And we were really wasted. _My_ child and I happily give my life. Just as I would if _my_ child needed a liver and there was not a suitable donor match available. No hesitation. _However_, I’ve been tested to see if my bone marrow would match for a friend of mine (RIP) who needed a transplant. If that data is still on file and tomorrow I get a call that some unknown person needs a liver and I am a match, well, sorry. I’m using it. ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/must-a-grown-man-risk-his-life-for-an-unrelated-mother-child-what-if-theyre-related-or-anothe/536663/106 "2010-04-22T15:55:47Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > First, to those of you who voted that Leroy has no obligation to risk his life here: were you all assuming the woman and baby were no relationship to him? Or are you saying that, even if the baby in question is **his** baby, he is not morally or ethically obliged to do everything possible, including giving up his own life, to save the baby? I think Leroy has an obligation to save his own baby, even at the risk of his life. That’s part of what you sign up for when you become a parent. I don’t think he has an obligation to his wife, although he would be more likely (and rightly so) to risk his life for his wife than a stranger, and I think it would be an admirable thing to do (just as I think it would be admirable for her to give up her life for him). > [@](#): > > Second, to everyone: do you see the most altrustic options as basically selfish? Because I do. I voted as I did–that I hope that, in Leroy’s place, I’d have the balls to get my ass out of the lifeboat and put the woman and baby in my place–because in my eyes, the guilt of not doing so would be intolerable. Much worse than dying, in my view. But then, I think all actions are essentially selfish. I’m more than a bit of an Objectivist (without some of Rand’s more nutjob personal ideas), and I also think that almost all human actions are inherently selfish. I think the proper thing for humans to do is to support their own highest values. If you truly believe that it’s better for you to die to save someone else (whether they be your own child or a stranger) then you are (selfishly) supporting your own values. Ditto if you decide to remain on the boat (as long as you don’t shove anyone else off, of course). I don’t think “selfish” is a bad word, as long as you’re not stepping on anyone else’s rights to support yours. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/must-a-grown-man-risk-his-life-for-an-unrelated-mother-child-what-if-theyre-related-or-anothe/536663/107 "2010-04-22T19:05:12Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I said previously that mother and child were basically fucked if they were depending on me giving up my seat. I assumed the child was not mine. Hell, I’ve never even met the woman. And we were really wasted. > > _My_ child and I happily give my life. Just as I would if _my_ child needed a liver and there was not a suitable donor match available. No hesitation. > > _However_, I’ve been tested to see if my bone marrow would match for a friend of mine (RIP) who needed a transplant. If that data is still on file and tomorrow I get a call that some unknown person needs a liver and I am a match, well, sorry. I’m using it. It’s possible to do a partial liver transplant, you know. Though still risky. I’d enumerate the risks but I am a poet, not a doctor. A really bad poet, but a poet nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/must-a-grown-man-risk-his-life-for-an-unrelated-mother-child-what-if-theyre-related-or-anothe/536663/108 "2010-04-23T12:43:00Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > It’s possible to do a partial liver transplant, you know. Though still risky. I’d enumerate the risks but I am a poet, not a doctor. Have you seen my liver? Even transplanting the entire organ, the recipient would need a bit more. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/must-a-grown-man-risk-his-life-for-an-unrelated-mother-child-what-if-theyre-related-or-anothe/536663/109 "2010-04-23T16:58:45Z")
I would ask everyone in the boat to strip naked and toss their clothes overboard. If that didn’t make the boat light enough to accommodate the mother and child, I would offer the seat to them but then hang onto the lifeboat from the outside. If several passengers took turns hanging onto the boat from the outside, then with any luck none would die from exposure. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/must-a-grown-man-risk-his-life-for-an-unrelated-mother-child-what-if-theyre-related-or-anothe/536663/110 "2010-04-23T19:04:21Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I would ask everyone in the boat to strip naked and toss their clothes overboard. If that didn’t make the boat light enough to accommodate the mother and child, I would offer the seat to them but then hang onto the lifeboat from the outside. If several passengers took turns hanging onto the boat from the outside, then with any luck none would die from exposure. Forgive me, but that seems remarkably stupid. At least, unworkable. I’m fairly sure the OP says that time is a factor; there’s no time for stripping, and I think it highly unlikely that people will agree to strip, or listen while you explain the necessity. Your plan is half a step from screaming for help from Aquaman. Who is, apropos of nothing, Earth’s greatest hero, damn his blue eye. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/must-a-grown-man-risk-his-life-for-an-unrelated-mother-child-what-if-theyre-related-or-anothe/536663/111 "2010-04-23T19:18:58Z")
Well, if time was that short I’d give up the seat and hang on the side of the boat. With my buoyancy, I’d add little weight to it. Then I’d have everyone toss their shoes overboard. If there are say 25 pairs of shoes at a few pounds per pair, that would gain some margin for error. Then you just have other passengers take turns being out of the boat till help comes. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/must-a-grown-man-risk-his-life-for-an-unrelated-mother-child-what-if-theyre-related-or-anothe/536663/112 "2010-04-23T20:46:59Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > ‘Women and children first’ is a very recent invention. It came in with the wreck of the Birkenhead and is known as the Birkenhead Drill. > > If the woman and child were related to me, I’d definitely give up my seat. If they were not, I’d still give up my seat: I’m 43, single, with no children. I’m no great loss to the human race. As far as written records of lifeboat loading procedure, you might be correct, but I doubt it. It is notable only because it was memorialized in prose by Rudyard Kipling. As far as practices before the Birkenhead event, you can’t really say. And I was speaking of the concept of women and children first not only in regard to ships, but as a basic societal rule. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/must-a-grown-man-risk-his-life-for-an-unrelated-mother-child-what-if-theyre-related-or-anothe/536663/113 "2010-04-23T21:27:45Z")
Does the baby have a bottle of tobassco sauce in his grimmy little hands? ---
**Author:** ![palacheck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a88e57/32.png) [@palacheck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/palacheck)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/must-a-grown-man-risk-his-life-for-an-unrelated-mother-child-what-if-theyre-related-or-anothe/536663/114 "2010-04-24T09:17:41Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Well, if you think about it, you see that the women before men thing is usually justified by saying that you need more women to maintain the species. Which means that the value of women is entirely in their reproductive ability, with a dash of condescension thrown in for their weakness. I was just thinking that in this tragic situation saving the woman would be a nice and noble thing. Instead I apparently deep down believe the stuff in this quote. Makes me kind of sad. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/must-a-grown-man-risk-his-life-for-an-unrelated-mother-child-what-if-theyre-related-or-anothe/536663/115 "2010-04-24T15:44:31Z")
As I want the maximum of lives to be saved the most wise course of action is for Leroy to take the baby. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/must-a-grown-man-risk-his-life-for-an-unrelated-mother-child-what-if-theyre-related-or-anothe/536663/116 "2010-04-24T17:12:32Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > As I want the maximum of lives to be saved the most wise course of action is for Leroy to take the baby. I’m pretty sure Jesus would expect you to give up your seat for the woman and child, Curtis. And I don’t even mean that snarkily. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/must-a-grown-man-risk-his-life-for-an-unrelated-mother-child-what-if-theyre-related-or-anothe/536663/117 "2010-04-24T17:19:39Z")
> [@palacheck](#): > > I was just thinking that in this tragic situation saving the woman would be a nice and noble thing. Instead I apparently deep down believe the stuff in this quote. Makes me kind of sad. I don’t think that women’s _entire_ worth is based on their reproductive potential. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/must-a-grown-man-risk-his-life-for-an-unrelated-mother-child-what-if-theyre-related-or-anothe/536663/118 "2010-04-24T19:12:43Z")
> [@G0sp3l](#): > > That’s pretty much what I was thinking. I also didn’t want to risk skewing the results by asking if the mother was hot. Hot women always look hotter in wet clothes. I hope she’s a strong swimmer. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/must-a-grown-man-risk-his-life-for-an-unrelated-mother-child-what-if-theyre-related-or-anothe/536663/119 "2010-04-24T19:32:35Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Hot women always look hotter in wet clothes. I hope she’s a strong swimmer. Very unfortunately it works the other way just as “well” :eek: And the same for men for that matter 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/must-a-grown-man-risk-his-life-for-an-unrelated-mother-child-what-if-theyre-related-or-anothe/536663/120 "2010-04-24T19:59:12Z")
Another thing about hot women… if you give up your seat and drown for them, you have even less of a shot than you would normally have. OTOH, if you don’t give them a seat and they live anyway, you have zero shot. Maybe compromise – fit them in if they will toss the baby. I mean, babies make dating so much tougher anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/must-a-grown-man-risk-his-life-for-an-unrelated-mother-child-what-if-theyre-related-or-anothe/536663.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/must-a-grown-man-risk-his-life-for-an-unrelated-mother-child-what-if-theyre-related-or-anothe/536663.md?page=7)