# Mutants in Marvel Comics arn't the next step in evolution... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 10, 2019, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mutants-in-marvel-comics-arnt-the-next-step-in-evolution/841592 "2019-10-10T14:11:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mutants-in-marvel-comics-arnt-the-next-step-in-evolution/841592/21 "2019-10-10T20:17:11Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Well, as long as we’re mentioning stuff like that, let me mention the double-edged sword that’s the mutant called _Forge_: he’s, uh, caused problems for humans. Also, he’s developed stuff that can be useful to humans (and, as you say, sometimes he’s offered it up in exchange for other stuff; and the benefits have prompted folks to make said trade). As I haven’t read Hickman’s run, I don’t know if Forge is the guy developing those pharmaceuticals; I _do,_ though, figure you can put him in any such story and make it a question: does his mutation lead to more harm, or to more good? Is that mutant a net negative for humanity, or a net positive? > > Even if the answer winds up being ‘negative’, the point is that it _is_ a question. Forge appears. Not the way you think. He’s a tech guy, not a chemical guy. On a slightly different note to all…I want to reiterate, if you stopped reading Marvel a while back…pick up Hickman’s FF, Avengers and lately his 2 six issue series on X-Men. They’re great. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mutants-in-marvel-comics-arnt-the-next-step-in-evolution/841592/22 "2019-10-10T20:50:16Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Wheres the ecological pressure to create millions of beings with wildly varying powers of which several can destroy the entire planet? Kree? Skrulls? Galactus? Celestials? Deviants? Seems like there’s a shit-ton of environmental pressure on humanity to evolve superpower defences in that universe. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mutants-in-marvel-comics-arnt-the-next-step-in-evolution/841592/23 "2019-10-10T21:06:57Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Forge appears. Not the way you think. He’s a tech guy, not a chemical guy. > On a slightly different note to all…I want to reiterate, if you stopped reading Marvel a while back…pick up Hickman’s FF, Avengers and lately his 2 six issue series on X-Men. They’re great. 1. He’s a tech guy who can do ‘chemical guy’ stuff, right? I mean, yeah, usually he’s doing stuff with holograms or bionic limbs, and he famously rigs up scanning devices and neutralization gear so humans can combat supers, and he can maybe even get a time machine up and running; but, while it’s not his usual area, he’ll sometimes get into genetic engineering and weird biochemical effects, right? 2. You’re now the second person who’s recommended it to me — and the first one has never steered me wrong — so I’ll gladly take a look. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2019, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mutants-in-marvel-comics-arnt-the-next-step-in-evolution/841592/24 "2019-10-11T18:38:32Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Evolution doesn’t have a goal, it just is. Now, do Marvel Mutants have a reproductive or survival advantage? That’s the important part of evolution that you’ve left out. That’s the real question- do their mutations get them or their children laid more often, let them impregnate women (or get impregnated) easier, or help them survive everyday life bette than others? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2019, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mutants-in-marvel-comics-arnt-the-next-step-in-evolution/841592/25 "2019-10-11T19:46:17Z")
> [@bump](#): > > That’s the real question- do their mutations get them or their children laid more often, let them impregnate women (or get impregnated) easier, or help them survive everyday life bette than others? Yes, remember Issue :mumble: of the :mumble: Series with Mr Virile, Ms Fertile, and their teleporting gametes? Now those are superpowers with evolutionary potential! ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mutants-in-marvel-comics-arnt-the-next-step-in-evolution/841592/26 "2019-10-12T02:38:54Z")
> [@bump](#): > > That’s the real question- do their mutations get them or their children laid more often, let them impregnate women (or get impregnated) easier, or help them survive everyday life bette than others? In book it gets them hunted down and killed. A lot!! What’s not covered much or at all is how many mutants die to a harmful power manifesting\* or a physical mutation that completely prevents them from even procreating. \*Like blood that can turn to acid. Super-strength that doesn’t convey the slightest bit of invulnerability. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mutants-in-marvel-comics-arnt-the-next-step-in-evolution/841592/27 "2019-10-12T16:30:37Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > In book it gets them hunted down and killed. A lot!! > > What’s not covered much or at all is how many mutants die to a harmful power manifesting\* or a physical mutation that completely prevents them from even procreating. > > \*Like blood that can turn to acid. Super-strength that doesn’t convey the slightest bit of invulnerability. So really traits that work against being passed along to the next generations relative to non-mutants. ---
**Author:** ![Stowed\_Bob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stowed_bob/32/3312_2.png) [@Stowed\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stowed_Bob)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mutants-in-marvel-comics-arnt-the-next-step-in-evolution/841592/28 "2019-10-13T22:23:41Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > By the way, if anyone here dropped X-Men comics a while back…you NEED to pick up Jonathan Hickmans brilliant new pair of X-Men 6 issue series. They just concluded and they set up the X-Men for the future. Unless he continues with the series, whatever he sets up will be thrown into the waste bin by the next writer who has their own ideas and vision. I cannot tell you how disappointed I was that after Grant Morrison did his run on New X-Men, Chuck Austen moved in to bungle everything up. But that’s always been the pitfall of comic books with rotating creators. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mutants-in-marvel-comics-arnt-the-next-step-in-evolution/841592/29 "2019-10-13T23:16:21Z")
I don’t get the argument. Mutants are superior in every way. Evolution selects for traits that enhance survival. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mutants-in-marvel-comics-arnt-the-next-step-in-evolution/841592/30 "2019-10-14T01:58:44Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > So…‘tumor’ then. Mutants are tumors. With weird possible benefits. Pretty soon, you’re going to say they are like onions, because they have layers and onions have layers… or maybe a good parfait, cause everybody - mutant and muggle alike - likes a good parfait. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mutants-in-marvel-comics-arnt-the-next-step-in-evolution/841592/31 "2019-10-14T02:32:07Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Evolution selects for traits that enhance survival. Wrong. Evolution selects for traits that enhance _reproduction_. It doesn’t care if you survive indefinitely if you don’t reproduce. And you can die young if you have enough offspring before that. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mutants-in-marvel-comics-arnt-the-next-step-in-evolution/841592/32 "2019-10-14T02:43:56Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Wrong. Evolution selects for traits that enhance _reproduction_. It doesn’t care if you survive indefinitely if you don’t reproduce. And you can die young if you have enough offspring before that. two sides of the same coin. You survive long enough to reproduce, and you develop the tools that make it easier to build a society where you can reproduce. Power leads to reproduction in many ways. There are only a handful of species of social insects, but due to the power they posses they make up the bulk of the insect biomass on earth. Humans have far more offspring than we did before technology because technology empowers us to survive, thrive and reproduce. Gaining skills that translate into power leads to more survival and more reproduction. In the real world, over time mutants would take over the planet and probably become an interstellar species due to their powers like advanced intellect, teleportation, changing the fabric of space/time etc and they would number in the trillions eventually due to it. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mutants-in-marvel-comics-arnt-the-next-step-in-evolution/841592/33 "2019-10-14T03:11:26Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > two sides of the same coin. What percentage of mutants have produced any offspring at all? I read the original X-Men comics when I was a kid in the 1960s, but since then my only knowledge comes from the movies. My impression is that there are a few mutants that have offspring, but very very few. And their mortality rate is very much higher than ordinary humans, both through conflict with humans and among themselves. By all evidence, mutants are strongly selected against, both in terms of survival and reproduction. In evolutionary terms, although they are individually more powerful than humans, they are inferior in reproductive terms. Another issue is to what extent the mutations are heritable. Are these traits dominant or recessive? If the latter, it will take them a long time to spread. And what happens when two mutants with wildly different powers reproduce? ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mutants-in-marvel-comics-arnt-the-next-step-in-evolution/841592/34 "2019-10-14T03:33:23Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > What percentage of mutants have produced any offspring at all? I read the original X-Men comics when I was a kid in the 1960s, but since then my only knowledge comes from the movies. My impression is that there are a few mutants that have offspring, but very very few. And their mortality rate is very much higher than ordinary humans, both through conflict with humans and among themselves. By all evidence, mutants are strongly selected against, both in terms of survival and reproduction. In evolutionary terms, although they are individually more powerful than humans, they are inferior in reproductive terms. > > Another issue is to what extent the mutations are heritable. Are these traits dominant or recessive? If the latter, it will take them a long time to spread. And what happens when two mutants with wildly different powers reproduce? Well lets see…Cyclops and…Maddie…No wait, An alternate reality Jean Grey and Rachel and…oh fuck this Ok, Wolverine…you know…nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mutants-in-marvel-comics-arnt-the-next-step-in-evolution/841592/35 "2019-10-14T03:48:33Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > What percentage of mutants have produced any offspring at all? I read the original X-Men comics when I was a kid in the 1960s, but since then my only knowledge comes from the movies. My impression is that there are a few mutants that have offspring, but very very few. And their mortality rate is very much higher than ordinary humans, both through conflict with humans and among themselves. By all evidence, mutants are strongly selected against, both in terms of survival and reproduction. In evolutionary terms, although they are individually more powerful than humans, they are inferior in reproductive terms. Of course, if we’re going _there,_ then consider, say, Banshee: yeah, he died, since he goes on plenty of comic-book adventures; but as I understand it, he then came back, because, again, comic book. And then, as I understand it, he was dead again but came back again; and then dead again and back again? (Also, he fathered a kid at some point: he thought _she_ was dead and gone, but it turned out that, heh, no, this is one of those stories where it turns out that she’s alive and well and standing right there, and with mutant powers of her own.) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mutants-in-marvel-comics-arnt-the-next-step-in-evolution/841592/36 "2019-10-14T03:51:44Z")
Yeah, I just tried to research this a little, and as always when I try to check comic character’s backstories, I become hopelessly confused between alternate timelines, different dimensions, time travel, and simply contradictory stories. Honestly, this stuff makes _War and Peace_ look straightforward.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mutants-in-marvel-comics-arnt-the-next-step-in-evolution/841592/37 "2019-10-14T04:05:10Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Another issue is to what extent the mutations are heritable. Simply being a Mutant is the inherited trait. Mutation in the Marvel Universe is the presence and activation of the X-Gene. I’m not sure of the current status quo, but in the 90s, it was canonical that specific mutations could not be inherited in toto, by definition - although kids frequently have some variation on one or both of their parents’ mutation, there’s usually some (usually small, mostly cosmetic) difference… Daken has claws and a healing factor, but his claws have a different arrangement than Wolverine’s; Siryn has a sonic scream, but it has slightly different range of utility than Banshee’s\*; Nocturne\*\* inherited Nightcrawler’s physical mutations almost wholesale, but her tail is retractable, and she has almost completely unrelated powers; Rachel Grey/Summers\*\* has time powers in addition to the telepathy and telekinesis she inherited from Jean (and got nothing from Scott); etc, etc, etc. The X-gene seems to be eager to be passed down - I don’t think that any Mutant has had a non-Mutant child. - This was, IIRC, a retcon to bring her into agreement with the ‘have to be different from their parents’ thing, and her scream was initially identical to her dad’s. \*\* Both are alternate universe children, but they demonstrate the principle. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mutants-in-marvel-comics-arnt-the-next-step-in-evolution/841592/38 "2019-10-14T13:22:56Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > In evolutionary terms, although they are individually more powerful than humans, they are inferior in reproductive terms. Beyond that, most of their survival advantages are only really advantageous at the extremes in modern society. Maybe in caveman times they would have had advantages versus normal humans, but today, not so much. It’s all about having more children and having more of them survive to adulthood to have more children of their own. If a genetic trait enhances either of those things, then it’s likely to be passed on and eventually become relatively common. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mutants-in-marvel-comics-arnt-the-next-step-in-evolution/841592.md?page=1)